Our most critical season ?

[doombear]

I think the OP asks a fair question. Our prized stability, one of the cornerstones of our survival and success, has been tipped upside down in less than 10 months starting with the sale of Eze, then Guehi, then Glasners tantrums and eventual departure followed by a summer of unprecedented churn. Things seem more up in the air than ever before and yet the club opted for one of the most unproven managers it could find. He seems to prefer a bold method at odds with everything that made us successful.

We have sold established performers from a settled team and bought far too many average or hopeful prospects. We have never had, and simply do not need, a squad this size. For the first time there are rumours and grumbles coming out from within the squad. Of course there are. There are too many of them to keep happy. Yet at the same time the team is weaker.

That's why there is so much speculation about Sage. It's the wider picture. If we had the same results under Dyche or someone then nobody would bat an eyelid, because everyone would recognise the sense in the method.

I don't share the view that things could end up in either fantastic triumph or miserable dismay; Only the latter is realistic. We do not have the quality of player nor the settled and effective team to win the Europa League. We have pressed go on the new stand, though, which only makes any financial sense in the premier league. Relegation had always been an inevitable spectre but not an existential risk. Now it is unthinkable. Of course that adds to the pressure.

I can understand why the club didn't want to respond to the conference league win by seeing the glass half empty and appointing a survival specialist, but my concern is that they made a big mistake in not doing so given the extent of change and subsequent uncertainty.

Of course, hopefully Sage will do well. I was far more reassured by the Leeds game precisely because we looked like a coherent team who prioritised the clean sheet. In other words, if Sage can do as a Dyche, Pulis, Hodgson or Allardyce would do then we'll probably be fine. Can he though? And has the club made his life harder by signing too many players? Once Europe is over we will have about eight senior players with no purpose. That's not easy to manage.

Last season we had too few players and now you're saying we have too many. For the first time in years we have the maximum 25 man squad (if you include Riad). However, within the remaining 24, we have two disgruntled players (Sarr and Mateta) whose shenanigans are not down to Sage and two players (Tomiyasu and Doucoure) whose recent injury record means the club can hardly rely on them to be regular players. That leaves 20 (three of whom are keepers).

Yes, within the first team squad we also have three U21s (Ahanor, Canvot and Gozo). I think it's healthy that there is now genuine competition for places, not just in the team but in the matchday squad. If players are moaning about not being in the matchday squad, they need either to pull their fingers out if they're not showing Sage and his team what he's looking for, or bide their time as opportunities will come during what is likely to be another very long season of 50 plus matches.

Every new manager has to set clear standards for the players. Sage has done that and shown he's a tough cookie. McNeil and Canvot have responded well to their exclusions; the jury's still out on Guessand; in fact I wonder whether he might be sent back to Villa or called back by them if he's not going to respond to Sage's methods.

Yesterday showed that Sage is capable of adjusting his set-up and tactics. We were the better team and kept both Leeds and their fans quiet for much of the game.

I believe Sage will prove to be a good acquisition for our club and we'll get to see some good and enjoyable football played by his teams this season.

 

[BromleyMonkey]

Wonder if the Spuds' fans are calling for Sean Dyche to come in and save them?

I hope so, then if we do sack sage, we at least won’t end up with him

 

[Runningman]

I hope so, then if we do sack sage, we at least won’t end up with him

We’ll probably get Dyche after he has been sacked by Spurs !

 

[maddog]

The issue is we don’t really know what sort of manager we have. He has very limited experience and none at this level. That’s one reason there is so much speculation.

Ultimately the thing that will make all speculation disappear is results. Right now we have 4 points from 5 games and a minus 6 goal difference. By any measure that’s a bad start. However, more performances showing the solidity of yesterday and a couple more wins in the next three and the narrative will be different.

If we don’t know why is everyone imagining the worst? It’s a cycle of doom- talk where everyone fires up the next person to be more apocalyptic than the previous post. It’s nonsense.

He looks to me like a good manager and we’ll see if he is a great one - way too early to conclude anything.

 

[JHB]

If we don’t know why is everyone imagining the worst? It’s a cycle of doom- talk where everyone fires up the next person to be more apocalyptic than the previous post. It’s nonsense.

He looks to me like a good manager and we’ll see if he is a great one - way too early to conclude anything.

The main reason is results and defensive displays. As I say more solid defensive performances, wins and speculation will disappear.

As you say we don’t know enough so we can only judge on what we see on the pitch. It had been poor up until yesterday which was good.

He could be a good manager or could be gone before Xmas. Results will tell

 

[BromleyMonkey]

Sage had to shuffle the pack with all the squad changes and players drifting back after the World Cup. It was always going to take a bit of time. The chuckle brothers Sarr and Mateta’s unrest is not his fault, so he’s called out a couple of hapless players, good!! Canvot needed a rocket up his arse after his Fulham performance
We’ve had a couple of good cup wins and things look like they’re settling down in the league.
If we sack him now it’ll be madness

 

[TheBigToePunt]

So he should be pandering to players who show a lack of effort, play poorly and can’t accept being dropped? I actually like his old school management style. It’s a breath of fresh air in an era when the players have got all the power.

Not at all. I've got no problem with him laying down the law. Watching McNeill run his nuts off when he came on against Poznan, it seemed to have worked.

I think there will be more unhappy players about the place than we are used to, but that's not because of Sage. Its because we have signed so many that even senior players who might have expected otherwise have been left out of the Europe squad. Sage will have to manage that, but it's not his doing. If he wants to turn that into ruthless competition for places then fine. There will still be some long faces, though. He will still have to manage more of that than his predecessors did.

My concern about Sage is whether he is tactically astute enough. He seems to want to play a high-risk pressing game which no Palace manager has ever done successfully since we got promoted. Quite the opposite: All our success has come from being stubbornly hard to beat.

If Sage can get his approach to work then great. If not then he will need to use a different approach, but he has no experience of that at all, as far as I can tell.

 

[mtp1958]

Not at all. I've got no problem with him laying down the law. Watching McNeill run his nuts off when he came on against Poznan, it seemed to have worked.

I think there will be more unhappy players about the place than we are used to, but that's not because of Sage. Its because we have signed so many that even senior players who might have expected otherwise have been left out of the Europe squad. Sage will have to manage that, but it's not his doing. If he wants to turn that into ruthless competition for places then fine. There will still be some long faces, though. He will still have to manage more of that than his predecessors did.

My concern about Sage is whether he is tactically astute enough. He seems to want to play a high-risk pressing game which no Palace manager has ever done successfully since we got promoted. Quite the opposite: All our success has come from being stubbornly hard to beat.

If Sage can get his approach to work then great. If not then he will need to use a different approach, but he has no experience of that at all, as far as I can tell.

At Lyon he was defensive then changed to high pressing he used the players that was there already , so he can go more defensive if needed

 

[doombear]

Not at all. I've got no problem with him laying down the law. Watching McNeill run his nuts off when he came on against Poznan, it seemed to have worked.

I think there will be more unhappy players about the place than we are used to, but that's not because of Sage. Its because we have signed so many that even senior players who might have expected otherwise have been left out of the Europe squad. Sage will have to manage that, but it's not his doing. If he wants to turn that into ruthless competition for places then fine. There will still be some long faces, though. He will still have to manage more of that than his predecessors did.

My concern about Sage is whether he is tactically astute enough. He seems to want to play a high-risk pressing game which no Palace manager has ever done successfully since we got promoted. Quite the opposite: All our success has come from being stubbornly hard to beat.

If Sage can get his approach to work then great. If not then he will need to use a different approach, but he has no experience of that at all, as far as I can tell.

That's because we have a reduced size Europa squad owing to not having 4 club trained players - just the 1, namely Mitchell. We can only have a squad of 22 for Europe as opposed to the maximum of 25. With such a reduced squad, one does need to include the better options.

 

[TheBigToePunt]

Last season we had too few players and now you're saying we have too many. For the first time in years we have the maximum 25 man squad (if you include Riad). However, within the remaining 24, we have two disgruntled players (Sarr and Mateta) whose shenanigans are not down to Sage and two players (Tomiyasu and Doucoure) whose recent injury record means the club can hardly rely on them to be regular players. That leaves 20 (three of whom are keepers).

Yes, within the first team squad we also have three U21s (Ahanor, Canvot and Gozo). I think it's healthy that there is now genuine competition for places, not just in the team but in the matchday squad. If players are moaning about not being in the matchday squad, they need either to pull their fingers out if they're not showing Sage and his team what he's looking for, or bide their time as opportunities will come during what is likely to be another very long season of 50 plus matches.

Every new manager has to set clear standards for the players. Sage has done that and shown he's a tough cookie. McNeil and Canvot have responded well to their exclusions; the jury's still out on Guessand; in fact I wonder whether he might be sent back to Villa or called back by them if he's not going to respond to Sage's methods.

Yesterday showed that Sage is capable of adjusting his set-up and tactics. We were the better team and kept both Leeds and their fans quiet for much of the game.

I believe Sage will prove to be a good acquisition for our club and we'll get to see some good and enjoyable football played by his teams this season.

This is the key. If he creates a viable way of playing for Palace in the premier league then everything else is just normal background noise. If he doesn't (and Leeds was the first and only sign that he can, so let's wait and see) then all those unhappy players suddenly become a story (or a source of leaks). No Palace manager has had to deal with that before. Our ship is rarely rocked from within. Its a big part of our stability, which is the key to our success.

I think people over-value squad depth. It matters sometimes, but not as much as the strength of the team. It is not clear to me that rotating players to keep legs fresh, or making them compete for places against each other, ultimately leads to the same rewards as having a settled side who are familiar with each other, and a smaller group of players who all feel responsible for results because they play most of the games. A larger squad brings it's own challenges. To have Guessand, Lerma, Franca, Doucoure, Gozo, and Matthews all at training every day from Mon to Thurs with no motivation as they are not, and cannot be, involved is a problem most managers would want to avoid, especially when you need to call upon some of them for league games.

I don't think we did have too few players last year, we just had too few good enough ones. We now seem to have quantity over quality. One way to get the best out of more modest players is to organise them in a system that suits them, then make them feel some sort of ownership of results. I worry that there will be too many players playing so few games that they can allow themselves to shrug bad results off as not being their fault or responsibility.

 

[TheBigToePunt]

That's because we have a reduced size Europa squad owing to not having 4 club trained players - just the 1, namely Mitchell. We can only have a squad of 22 for Europe as opposed to the maximum of 25. With such a reduced squad, one does need to include the better options.

Whatever the reason, the outcome is the same.

 

[JHB]

This is the key. If he creates a viable way of playing for Palace in the premier league then everything else is just normal background noise. If he doesn't (and Leeds was the first and only sign that he can, so let's wait and see) then all those unhappy players suddenly become a story (or a source of leaks). No Palace manager has had to deal with that before. Our ship is rarely rocked from within. Its a big part of our stability, which is the key to our success.

I think people over-value squad depth. It matters sometimes, but not as much as the strength of the team. It is not clear to me that rotating players to keep legs fresh, or making them compete for places against each other, ultimately leads to the same rewards as having a settled side who are familiar with each other, and a smaller group of players who all feel responsible for results because they play most of the games. A larger squad brings it's own challenges. To have Guessand, Lerma, Franca, Doucoure, Gozo, and Matthews all at training every day from Mon to Thurs with no motivation as they are not, and cannot be, involved is a problem most managers would want to avoid, especially when you need to call upon some of them for league games.

I don't think we did have too few players last year, we just had too few good enough ones. We now seem to have quantity over quality. One way to get the best out of more modest players is to organise them in a system that suits them, then make them feel some sort of ownership of results. I worry that there will be too many players playing so few games that they can allow themselves to shrug bad results off as not being their fault or responsibility.

We needed more squad depth but we also need to know who our best 11 to 14 players are. Right now we don’t. We haven’t played the same back three in any game yet I think. We’ve chopped and changed up front (some of that due to injury) and changed the number 10s. We needed to settle on a first choice set of players.

What is clear from the transfer window is we got in a few players the manager doesn’t have full faith in. For some, like McNeil that might be temporary but for others like Guessand and Osario it already looks like they might be surplus to requirements. I still think our window was dodgy. Why so many right sided attackers who don’t make the first team better?

 

[doombear]

We needed more squad depth but we also need to know who our best 11 to 14 players are. Right now we don’t. We haven’t played the same back three in any game yet I think. We’ve chopped and changed up front (some of that due to injury) and changed the number 10s. We needed to settle on a first choice set of players.

What is clear from the transfer window is we got in a few players the manager doesn’t have full faith in. For some, like McNeil that might be temporary but for others like Guessand and Osario it already looks like they might be surplus to requirements. I still think our window was dodgy. Why so many right sided attackers who don’t make the first team better?

Guessand does look surplus to requirements if he isn't going to knuckle down. As for Osario, probably still early days. He at least made the bench yesterday which suggests he's working in training. He may well become an viable option once Sarr leaves or if Sarr doesn't perform well when given the chance.

It seems that we may continue to see Kamada playing more between the lines so as to support Timber and Wharton where we'd otherwise be overrun in midfield.

 

[TheBigToePunt]

It seems that we may continue to see Kamada playing more between the lines so as to support Timber and Wharton where we'd otherwise be overrun in midfield.

The use of Kamada is interesting. To me, he is neat and tidy and gives us continuity in possession, but lacks individual dynamism or match-winning ability. As a result, he helps us in the middle third but not the final third. I posted after the Leeds game that I just can't see Kamada playing as a no10 for us given the above.

However, if Sage is more flexible than Glasner (or at least, if he encourages players to interchange positions a bit) then Kamada drifting backwards from the forward line into midfield when we have possession could work well. He would effectively be a third midfielder.

That, however, places a lot of emphasis on the remaining front two to cause problems and score. I could see Mateta and Sarr doing that, but not Pino and Larsen.

These are the sort of things make a huge difference to whether Sage gets enough results for everyone to buy in to what he wants to do. He really does have his hands full.

 

[rikz]

New season, new manager, new team, new stand started and three promoted teams who look like they won’t roll over.
If we get it right, stay up and win the Europa League, which is far from impossible given our bigger squad and the 2 legged phase after the group stage, we would be in the Champions League and all the riches that comes with it. And surely set for years more in the Premier League and higher finishes in front of 34,000 fans every home game.
If we get it wrong and get relegated maybe the ‘start of a new dark age’ as Churchill once said (albeit it not
about Palace)!
That’s why this season is so critical……

Qualifying for the champions league guarantees nothing, look at Tottenham, who're far richer than we could ever dream of, our position in the league is never guaranteed. Every year will be tough for a club of our size

 

[MarkA333]

Our priority is staying in the premiership. Spurs and Newcastle show that riches don’t buy you any guarantees. Test last time that happened was when Blackburn’s bought Alan Shearer and look where they are now.

 

[ASCPFC]

That's because we have a reduced size Europa squad owing to not having 4 club trained players - just the 1, namely Mitchell. We can only have a squad of 22 for Europe as opposed to the maximum of 25. With such a reduced squad, one does need to include the better options.

I don't see why we didn't keep some of our fringe players instead of taking crumbs for them. Main one I thought could have been Ozoh, but also maybe Rak-Sakyi and Cardines. I would have liked to have tried Imray but that's just a dream now.

 

[MrRobbo]

I don't see why we didn't keep some of our fringe players instead of taking crumbs for them. Main one I thought could have been Ozoh, but also maybe Rak-Sakyi and Cardines. I would have liked to have tried Imray but that's just a dream now.

Because we cant even get all our senior players on our bench. Its much having these lads playing some footie on load. Cardines in particular is doing brilliantly.

 

[ASCPFC]

Because we cant even get all our senior players on our bench. Its much having these lads playing some footie on load. Cardines in particular is doing brilliantly.

In Europe though, we've missed out on squad places we didn't have to. We also don't seem to give players any chance even if they do well on loan
Imray deserved a chance here in my opinion. You could argue going on loan and even doing well won't matter. We'll buy your replacement anyway and sell you for little.

 

[Charles]

Lerma played in the cup, but is not in the Europa squad. Canvot and McNeil were obviously given a shake and came back looking a bit more alert.

Guessand has disappeared, but I can't blame Sage for not including him as he's never looked that impressive.

Sarr and Mateta situations are out of Sage's control.

It does appear all is not well behind the scenes, but as much blame lies with the board and poor summer prep as it does with Sage in my opinion. Pierre has been dealt a pretty sh*t situation to come into.

Tbh all I see is gossip, clickbait and teams performing well with apparently good morale and individuals - as you say - responding positively to being 'jolted'.