Labour Party politics

[Foxy82]

I assume you are not old enough to have experienced what is was like in the 70s before Thatcher.

Of course he's old enough, he's Joseph bloody Paxton!

 

[Joseph Paxton]

Your humble Victorian polymath ! Enjoy your bananas and never forget, our noble club is named after my gigantic flatpack greenhouse.

 

[DanH]

I assume you are not old enough to have experienced what is was like in the 70s before Thatcher.

JP is right in that a lot of things that have been privatised (the natural monopolies) aren’t working in the public favour though.

Not sure that’s particularly controversial or overtly left wing to say.

 

[cryrst]

What Burnham is stating, and I support his conviction, is that we have endured nearly 5 decades of Thatcherism (neoliberal agenda in her style) in this country and save for a couple of years when Gordon Brown tried to implement a traditional Labour strategy, it persisted right up until Keir Starmer got the boot.

So, Thatcherism in the 80's was a wonderful dose of salts for a stagnating economy but evidently rooted in superficial remedies & short-term gains. So he is setting out his stall: Thatcherism hasn't functioned in a sustainable manner and has actually left our country hollowed out and compounded inequality. Burnham is the first PM since 1979 (nod to G Brown) to map out a new type of politics, strongly defined against Thatcherism.

Does he have the calibre of Labour thinkers around him to challenge vested interests?

Can you explain where you see compounded inequality specifically. It looks to me that the inequality is lazy no good tnucs getting all the help and when the safety net is needed for genuine people they get the shaft. Always been the way even back in thatchers Britain.

 

[DanH]

Can you explain where you see compounded inequality specifically. It looks to me that the inequality is lazy no good tnucs getting all the help and when the safety net is needed for genuine people they get the shaft. Always been the way even back in thatchers Britain.

A third of those on universal credit are working.

Do you think those people that are working and still need to claim to live are lazy ‘tnucs’?

 

[Joseph Paxton]

Can you explain where you see compounded inequality specifically. It looks to me that the inequality is lazy no good tnucs getting all the help and when the safety net is needed for genuine people they get the shaft. Always been the way even back in thatchers Britain.

In a country where 3.1 million working people have to rely on state benefits to keep the economy productive?
A country where food banks have exploded in number and become totally normalised with millions of emergency parcels provided in recent years?

Perhaps you should have a rewatch of Boys From The Blackstuff? Lazy? 1980's was no joke outside London and South East.

Since the GFC crash in 2007/08 this country has totally stagnated and regressed and the neoliberal solution has been austerity with some aimless quantative easing thrown in. Then we voted to divorce ourselves from perhaps the world's most cohesive socio-economic bloc. Only thing that surprises me is that there haven't been more strikes and riots.

Folks have just been tranquilised by ludicrously available easy credit and living beyond their means and our most successful industry sector is DEBT !?

 

[cryrst]

A third of those on universal credit are working.

Do you think those people that are working and still need to claim to live are lazy ‘tnucs’?

Many yes. Apparently pip is not means tested. If you can lie your heart out what’s the jeopardy. One question I think is can you walk so many yards without stopping. Tick to no and on your way to pip. Don’t put that old chestnut out there. Real benefits should be means tested end of.

 

[cryrst]

In a country where 3.1 million working people have to rely on state benefits to keep the economy productive?
A country where food banks have exploded in number and become totally normalised with millions of emergency parcels provided in recent years?

Perhaps you should have a rewatch of Boys From The Blackstuff? Lazy? 1980's was no joke outside London and South East.

Since the GFC crash in 2007/08 this country has totally stagnated and regressed and the neoliberal solution has been austerity with some aimless quantative easing thrown in. Then we voted to divorce ourselves from perhaps the world's most cohesive socio-economic bloc. Only thing that surprises me is that there haven't been more strikes and riots.

Folks have just been tranquilised by ludicrously available easy credit and living beyond their means and our most successful industry sector is DEBT !?

Anyone with a mortgage is living beyond their means so that don’t wash. At any moment loans can be called in. Many abuse food banks and as above not means tested. I have an aunt and uncle who use one. Have full pensions and no mortgage in a 500 k house. Don’t use false figures and look at car leasing and who does. Look at who has two or more holidays a year. Look at the flash TV and phones, kids with high end clothes , toys, bikes etc. do the research as I would say less than 50% would get these benefits if they were checked. One that 2TK actually wanted to go for was benefits. Who stopped him, his own party MPs. Protecting their vote base instead of the uk economy. If he had balls and followed it through he would still be PM and possibly my thought as someone to vote for at a GE. He bottled it end of. It’s all about votes and positions so wake up and observe; don’t just see!

 

[Matov]

A third of those on universal credit are working.

Do you think those people that are working and still need to claim to live are lazy ‘tnucs’?

This is the insanity of our welfare state. The taxpayer is effectively subsidising the corporations for keeping wages low.

 

[Joseph Paxton]

Anyone with a mortgage is living beyond their means so that don’t wash. At any moment loans can be called in. Many abuse food banks and as above not means tested. I have an aunt and uncle who use one. Have full pensions and no mortgage in a 500 k house. Don’t use false figures and look at car leasing and who does. Look at who has two or more holidays a year. Look at the flash TV and phones, kids with high end clothes , toys, bikes etc. do the research as I would say less than 50% would get these benefits if they were checked. One that 2TK actually wanted to go for was benefits. Who stopped him, his own party MPs. Protecting their vote base instead of the uk economy. If he had balls and followed it through he would still be PM and possibly my thought as someone to vote for at a GE. He bottled it end of. It’s all about votes and positions so wake up and observe; don’t just see!

An estimated £24.1 billion in income-related benefits and social tariffs goes unclaimed across Great Britain each year, according to analysis by Policy in Practice. Eligible individuals underclaim.

Cheats like your Uncle and Aunt are the peeps that the media demonise to set up a false stereotype.

Wake up - the rich and powerful have us running around like techno-serfs in a digital feudal state. Mass surveillance is the standard now. Your phone is snitching on you and your Smart TV is taking and sending screenshots of what you're watching. Your supermarket loyalty card even knows what bread you prefer. All the consumption of flash TV's, phones and clothes is keeping sclerotic fossil-capitalism propped up.

 

[DanH]

This is the insanity of our welfare state. The taxpayer is effectively subsidising the corporations for keeping wages low.

Yep, this is where even though our politics are far apart we fundamentally agree on this. As do most I think.

Interested to know your solution from your side though.

 

[Matov]

Yep, this is where even though our politics are far apart we fundamentally agree on this. As do most I think.

Interested to know your solution from your side though.

Not sure, to be honest. I guess the obvious mechanism would be to increase the minimum wage to a level where by if somebody works in excess of 35 hours per week, then it is far better than claiming any kind of benefits.

But the minimum wage has also scuppered a lot of apprentiships and so on. I guess one way around this would be to extend the Student loan model to trades as well.

I suspect we are in a financial death spiral in that the Welfare state is now so entrenched in how our society functions that any genuine attempts to actually get a grip on it will be defeated due to people simply not being willing to vote for a party who is willing to apply the neccessary fixes to it. Ditto with the NHS. The actual model of how society functions has changed so much since say 1945 that there are simply not any conventional solutions to it.

I am convinced that we will need to collapse our way out of this when the burden just becomes too much for society to be able to bear. There has to be a breaking point to just how much of a burden the welfare state becomes and it strikes me that the tipping point might be nearer than people realise.

Already seeing the property market starting to creak, and throw in the bond markets showing very little confidence in the continuing demands being placed on it by almost every major Western economy, aided and abetted by a Western elite seemingly bent on war with Russia, and I am rather despairing of it all.

 

[DanH]

Not sure, to be honest. I guess the obvious mechanism would be to increase the minimum wage to a level where by if somebody works in excess of 35 hours per week, then it is far better than claiming any kind of benefits.

But the minimum wage has also scuppered a lot of apprentiships and so on. I guess one way around this would be to extend the Student loan model to trades as well.

I suspect we are in a financial death spiral in that the Welfare state is now so entrenched in how our society functions that any genuine attempts to actually get a grip on it will be defeated due to people simply not being willing to vote for a party who is willing to apply the neccessary fixes to it. Ditto with the NHS. The actual model of how society functions has changed so much since say 1945 that there are simply not any conventional solutions to it.

I am convinced that we will need to collapse our way out of this when the burden just becomes too much for society to be able to bear. There has to be a breaking point to just how much of a burden the welfare state becomes and it strikes me that the tipping point might be nearer than people realise.

Already seeing the property market starting to creak, and throw in the bond markets showing very little confidence in the continuing demands being placed on it by almost every major Western economy, aided and abetted by a Western elite seemingly bent on war with Russia, and I am rather despairing of it all.

Agree with a lot. I think lifting the personal allowance for lower earners and removing employers NIC for those under 25 would help a lot.

There are a lot of businesses running month to month with cash flow and not willing to take a punt on youngsters. Now putting their trust in AI too to do what those people were doing, forgetting that they need succession planning in the long term.

Bit of a race to the bottom.

 

[cryrst]

An estimated £24.1 billion in income-related benefits and social tariffs goes unclaimed across Great Britain each year, according to analysis by Policy in Practice. Eligible individuals underclaim.

Cheats like your Uncle and Aunt are the peeps that the media demonise to set up a false stereotype.

Wake up - the rich and powerful have us running around like techno-serfs in a digital feudal state. Mass surveillance is the standard now. Your phone is snitching on you and your Smart TV is taking and sending screenshots of what you're watching. Your supermarket loyalty card even knows what bread you prefer. All the consumption of flash TV's, phones and clothes is keeping sclerotic fossil-capitalism propped up.

It really isn’t a stereotype. It’s probably quite normal. I don’t doubt that many people and families need help financially. No issues helping them. Unfortunately the negative is that many who don’t need it jump in for freebies. It has been happening for years and years. Look how quickly some very comfortable people claimed their Covid loan. s*** I know someone who took the 50k to pay his tax bill. Then repay monthly. Lovely eh! Self employed constantly claiming they earn a pittance so they can get benefits. The genuinely poor will get tarred with one brush but hmg have made it this way. Means test claimants. Spy on the so called disabled claiming loads as doctors feel under pressure to write them into the system. ADHD, anxiety, all these non provable illnesses. Also doctors being threatened I read in the past. Note I haven’t mentioned immigration as financially the number that costs is minimal compared to the piss takers.
As matov says. It’s goner go bang and the ones who suffer will be the genuinely poor who come along as collateral damage !

 

[georgenorman]

JP is right in that a lot of things that have been privatised (the natural monopolies) aren’t working in the public favour though.

Not sure that’s particularly controversial or overtly left wing to say.

I agree, privatisation of the utilities that are natural monopolies was a mistake, competition and market forces would be required to make it work. Those utilities should be state run, but of course we would have to put up with inefficiency, overstaffing, poor service and regular strikes by unions.

Most of what Thatcher did was very much needed.

 

[silvertop]

Can you explain where you see compounded inequality specifically. It looks to me that the inequality is lazy no good tnucs getting all the help and when the safety net is needed for genuine people they get the shaft. Always been the way even back in thatchers Britain.

Sounds like our pension system.

 

[silvertop]

Not sure, to be honest. I guess the obvious mechanism would be to increase the minimum wage to a level where by if somebody works in excess of 35 hours per week, then it is far better than claiming any kind of benefits.

But the minimum wage has also scuppered a lot of apprentiships and so on. I guess one way around this would be to extend the Student loan model to trades as well.

I suspect we are in a financial death spiral in that the Welfare state is now so entrenched in how our society functions that any genuine attempts to actually get a grip on it will be defeated due to people simply not being willing to vote for a party who is willing to apply the neccessary fixes to it. Ditto with the NHS. The actual model of how society functions has changed so much since say 1945 that there are simply not any conventional solutions to it.

I am convinced that we will need to collapse our way out of this when the burden just becomes too much for society to be able to bear. There has to be a breaking point to just how much of a burden the welfare state becomes and it strikes me that the tipping point might be nearer than people realise.

Already seeing the property market starting to creak, and throw in the bond markets showing very little confidence in the continuing demands being placed on it by almost every major Western economy, aided and abetted by a Western elite seemingly bent on war with Russia, and I am rather despairing of it all.

I ticked this and then noticed the last line which...

The only (very worrying) historic parallel I can think of is WWII.

On any sensible analysis, the Axis powers stood absolutely no chance of winning the war from day one. All they had in their favour (which earned them the initial victories) was a wholly passionate and unified military set against ill equipped disparate nations who refused to mobilize and just wanted the kicking to stop. Once they came up against properly resourced and capable militaries it was only a matter of time before the largely horse-drawn or foot marching Wehrmacht crumbled.

Likewise Russia. Other than full on MAD (not a win - clue in the "M"), no chance whatever of defeating NATO. But will politics force their hand and make them start a war anyway?

 

[DANGERCLOSE]

https://twitter.com/x/status/2096636274429874467

 

[Badger11]

I ticked this and then noticed the last line which...

The only (very worrying) historic parallel I can think of is WWII.

On any sensible analysis, the Axis powers stood absolutely no chance of winning the war from day one. All they had in their favour (which earned them the initial victories) was a wholly passionate and unified military set against ill equipped disparate nations who refused to mobilize and just wanted the kicking to stop. Once they came up against properly resourced and capable militaries it was only a matter of time before the largely horse-drawn or foot marching Wehrmacht crumbled.

Likewise Russia. Other than full on MAD (not a win - clue in the "M"), no chance whatever of defeating NATO. But will politics force their hand and make them start a war anyway?

I'm not sure that is true.

Hitler's major mistake was to declare war on the USA which meant Germany was at war with the 3 largest powers Britain, USA and Russia.

There were other mistakes as well but if he had called it a day after 1940 / 41 I think he could have got a deal from Britain and possibly Russia. He could have kept western Europe and large parts of central and Eastern Europe.

I agree that Japan could only have won if they had sunk the aircraft carriers at Pearl Harbour.

 

[chris123]

This is the insanity of our welfare state. The taxpayer is effectively subsidising the corporations for keeping wages low.

Tax benefits