Israel v Hamas

[eaglesdare]

If I sat her waiting for comment on every Israeli atrocity, I'd have to take it up as a full time job. I shared a link with 60,000+ videos evidencing such acts... completely ignored by Team Genocide.

It's really, really simple; I condemn all atrocities committed by Hamas, including the use of human shields that you have linked. I also condemn the atrocities committed by Israel, of which there are an enormous amount that I have linked.

Watch the videos - you should at least know what you're defending.

Condemning both is easy. The difference here is that Hamas intentionally targets civilians and uses their own as shields as the nato report shows.

These "60 thouasand videos" are most likely unverified or out of context clips from a side that celebrated Oct 7th.

The videos I really want to see is the ones where hamas are releasing hostages and surrendering. If you have these videos please share them too.

 

[Spindle]

I have to say, it is AN HONOUR to be captain of Team Genocide. Thank you for your endorsement.


But I have a dilemma. Are pregnant women with terrorists behind them fair game?

 

[CPFCSaturn]

I think it's fair to say that around the world at any one time there are significantly over 100 conflicts.

People are dying in terrible and mostly unjust ways (in the sense that they aren't combatants and so didn't sign up for battle) all over the world at all times.

The Israel/Palestine war/conflict is one of these.

I would say that any innocent who has died in this is entitled to the same regret and sadness regardless. The same for anywhere in the world.

However, I very much doubt that if this country was engaged in a bloody conflict with lots of people dying that middle eastern countries would give two hoots about it.....and to be honest I wouldn't criticise them for it.....Other than a slight interest in humanitarian aid perhaps....it's none of their business.

Purely as a European, I favour Israel based upon them being mostly of European genetics (despite what a lot of them think and tell themselves) and the fact that Israel is.....mostly if not fully a western democracy.

However, the Israeli government is fully engaged in regional wars that it started.....I understand why they are doing it and there is logic....but it means an awful lot of innocent people are going to die and die only because Israel, under their current government (with big public backing) only wants what is best for them. Should I think that's right morally?

As a Brit....nay an Englishman albeit with genes from three out of four of our countries, how engaged should I be in this particular conflict in the middle east?

Surely only insomuch as it effects this nation.....I think that's the right attitude. I'm more interested in the safety of Jews in Britain.

I should support Israel's right to exist, while regarding its war as a regional issue that the west shouldn't really be that involved with....other than ensuring that Israel still exists. That doesn't mean supporting wars it starts itself with its big brother.

Though I will say that because America is a Nato ally who pay for the majority of it, they should have had the use of our bases from the start.....but no British involvement in actively attacking Iran.

However, if Iran are going to make us pay financially for using the strait then that does change things.....That can't be allowed to happen.

I agree with plenty of this.

Of course there are wars and injustices happening all over the world, and every innocent civilian death is a waste.

What makes this conflict attract so much attention, quite obviously in my opinion, is that Israel presents itself as an advanced Western democracy and close ally of the West. People will of course hold democracies that claim to uphold human rights to a higher standard than they hold dictatorships, terrorist groups or rogue states. When senior Israeli politicians and public figures express the sort of genocidal intent that they often do, it's completely normal that many people see that as particularly alarming coming from a purported developed democratic state.

I don't have any personal stake in the conflict beyond being appalled by the scale of civilian suffering and the complete disregard for human life, particularly amongst children. I find it ridiculous that a lot of the debate becomes about avoiding uncomfortable facts rather than honestly confronting what we can all see is happening - and that criticism applies to huge swathes of our media, our politicians, and a much smaller portion of the general population.

I don't care about this conflict because one side is Israeli or Palestinian, or Jewish or Muslim - I care because a democratic state that claims to share our values appears to be inflicting, describing it generously, enormous civilian suffering, and I think we as a nation should at least be able to confront that honestly.

 

[CPFCSaturn]

Condemning both is easy. The difference here is that Hamas intentionally targets civilians and uses their own as shields as the nato report shows.

These "60 thouasand videos" are most likely unverified or out of context clips from a side that celebrated Oct 7th.

The videos I really want to see is the ones where hamas are releasing hostages and surrendering. If you have these videos please share them too.

So why don't you do it?

In the very next line you start dismissing literal video evidence of the thing you claim doesn't happen, without even bothering to look at it. The scale of evidence of Israel's crimes are enormous, and yet you still pretend it's somehow debatable.

'Condemning both is easy' - pfft. It doesn't seem to be the amount of nonsense you have to throw up to avoid it.

 

[Stirlingsays]

I agree with plenty of this.

Of course there are wars and injustices happening all over the world, and every innocent civilian death is a waste.

What makes this conflict attract so much attention, quite obviously in my opinion, is that Israel presents itself as an advanced Western democracy and close ally of the West. People will of course hold democracies that claim to uphold human rights to a higher standard than they hold dictatorships, terrorist groups or rogue states. When senior Israeli politicians and public figures express the sort of genocidal intent that they often do, it's completely normal that many people see that as particularly alarming coming from a purported developed democratic state.

I don't have any personal stake in the conflict beyond being appalled by the scale of civilian suffering and the complete disregard for human life, particularly amongst children. I find it ridiculous that a lot of the debate becomes about avoiding uncomfortable facts rather than honestly confronting what we can all see is happening - and that criticism applies to huge swathes of our media, our politicians, and a much smaller portion of the general population.

I don't care about this conflict because one side is Israeli or Palestinian, or Jewish or Muslim - I care because a democratic state that claims to share our values appears to be inflicting, describing it generously, enormous civilian suffering, and I think we as a nation should at least be able to confront that honestly.

I'd say that's fair.

What I'd say is that Israel, due to the choice of its location and time, is surrounded by Islamic states.....who themselves got rid of most Christians and Jews to become Islamic and this means conflict is near continual.

Does that mean it's reasonable? I think you need to look at who started the wars.....which is Israel after October 7th and it's clear to me that they want regional hegemony to ensure their survival beyond protection from America (which is changing demographically).

Without an Israel there you would eventually get some type of new Ottoman empire, which I personally feel has always explained at least some of the traditional western support.

 

[CPFCSaturn]

I'd say that's fair.

What I'd say is that Israel, due to the choice of its location and time, is surrounded by Islamic states.....who themselves got rid of most Christians and Jews to become Islamic and this means conflict is near continual.

Does that mean it's reasonable? I think you need to look at who started the wars.....which is Israel after October 7th and it's clear to me that they want regional hegemony to ensure their survival beyond protection from America (which is changing demographically).

Without an Israel there you would eventually get some type of new Ottoman empire, which I personally feel has always explained at least some of the traditional western support.

I do understand that sort of macro concern, but I just don't think our preference towards a stable Israel in the region can be effectively unconditional, which it seems to be at this stage.

 

[eaglesdare]

So why don't you do it?

In the very next line you start dismissing literal video evidence of the thing you claim doesn't happen, without even bothering to look at it. The scale of evidence of Israel's crimes are enormous, and yet you still pretend it's somehow debatable.

'Condemning both is easy' - pfft. It doesn't seem to be the amount of nonsense you have to throw up to avoid it.

I condemn real Israeli excesses where proven. Not from Hamas ministry of truth reporting "facts".

I have seen enough of those videos. Most of them are clips that have been edited to meet Hamas propaganda purposes.

Hamas policy is civilian deaths on both sides for cameras. That’s why they reject every ceasefire that requires disarming.

I would recommend reading that NATO report I linked earlier. It goes over some war crimes by Hamas where they use human shields and other tactics involved and then blame it on Israel.

 

[georgenorman]

It can be, sure.

But I would suggest that when the majority of genocide experts in the world agree it is indeed a genocide, that's not quite so simple an accusation.

But what do they know, hey?

And what do you do? Oh, I’m a genocide expert!

 

[DanH]

And what do you do? Oh, I’m a genocide expert!

He never suggested he is. Just listens to those who are.

 

[cryrst]

He never suggested he is. Just listens to those who are.

And Hamas which sort of means s*** really !

 

[DanH]

And Hamas which sort of means s*** really !

Are you sending your messages tonight between breaks from having your mouth under the Stella tap in your local?

 

[Stirlingsays]

I do understand that sort of macro concern, but I just don't think our preference towards a stable Israel in the region can be effectively unconditional, which it seems to be at this stage.

I think the only place where it's currently unconditional is in the US.

We know why that is.

But that's demographically time limited and part of the reason Israel are doing their 'greater Israel project' in the first place.

Though from what we see, they aren't going to fully get what they want.

They would have to nuke Iran, which would itself causes huge problems aside from the huge death toll of innocents. So I think that's unrealistic....but it's a concern.

It's why I would be prepared to go to war against Iran along with the west in general if they insist on tactics in creating a world recession.

I would blame Israel/US for starting the war in the first place but personally I would refuse to accept the consequences of Iran causing economic havoc.

 

[cryrst]

Are you sending your messages tonight between breaks from having your mouth under the Stella tap in your local?

you haven’t been keeping up have you ?

 

[DanH]

you haven’t been keeping up have you ?

Not with your drinking tonight, probably not.

 

[cryrst]

Not with your drinking tonight, probably not.

Saving it for tomorrow tbh. 👍

 

[DanH]

Saving it for tomorrow tbh. 👍

Haha, get on it lad.