Israel v Hamas

I agree that the justification of "land promised by God" is not okay because it sets one religion above another. But most borders in the world have been forged by war or some form of violence. Israel is exceptional in that its borders were set by international law, in response to the worst atrocity against a religious group in European history. It is the only Jewish nation in the world. There is only one explanation of why the left-wing is so obsessed by this border dispute over and above the huge number of others, and that is anti-semitism. It is so ingrained in their narrative that they probably aren't even aware of it (and they love the idea of unconscious bias).

No problem in criticising the actions of the Israeli government, but anti-Zionism is anti-semitism. I feel ashamed that our country has allowed this scourge to grow, particularly when my parents' generation lived through the Holocaust.
 
Nice try but recognising the connection between Jews and Israel isn't antisemitism it is just acknowledging reality. Israel is the nation state of the Jewish people.

Jews are not just a religion but a people with a continuous historical, religious and cultural link to Israel. It is their promised land by God.

What is real antisemitism is the Jews being assaulted, harassed, murdered and attacked worldwide. Like we see a lot of in London, manchester and Birmingham (I wonder why?) and don't forget the beach in Australia.

It’s not a ‘try’ - Israel and ‘the Jews’ are not interchangeable terms, and conflating Jews around the world with the Israeli state is inherently antisemitic.

I’m not even going to get into the ‘promised by God’ bollocks.
 
I agree that the justification of "land promised by God" is not okay because it sets one religion above another. But most borders in the world have been forged by war or some form of violence. Israel is exceptional in that its borders were set by international law, in response to the worst atrocity against a religious group in European history. It is the only Jewish nation in the world. There is only one explanation of why the left-wing is so obsessed by this border dispute over and above the huge number of others, and that is anti-semitism. It is so ingrained in their narrative that they probably aren't even aware of it (and they love the idea of unconscious bias).

No problem in criticising the actions of the Israeli government, but anti-Zionism is anti-semitism. I feel ashamed that our country has allowed this scourge to grow, particularly when my parents' generation lived through the Holocaust.

It absolutely isn’t - that’s a ridiculous claim to make.
 
It’s not a ‘try’ - Israel and ‘the Jews’ are not interchangeable terms, and conflating Jews around the world with the Israeli state is inherently antisemitic.

I’m not even going to get into the ‘promised by God’ bollocks.

As I have explained clearly Israel is the nation state of the Jewish people. That's not "conflating" that's basic reality. You may not like the promised by God part but that's what they believe. So take it up with them.

Holding Jews worldwide collectively responsible for Israel is antisemitic. Which is why we are seeing Jews attacked in London, Manchester, Birmingham, Australia and other parts of the world.
 
I agree that the justification of "land promised by God" is not okay because it sets one religion above another. But most borders in the world have been forged by war or some form of violence. Israel is exceptional in that its borders were set by international law, in response to the worst atrocity against a religious group in European history. It is the only Jewish nation in the world. There is only one explanation of why the left-wing is so obsessed by this border dispute over and above the huge number of others, and that is anti-semitism. It is so ingrained in their narrative that they probably aren't even aware of it (and they love the idea of unconscious bias).

No problem in criticising the actions of the Israeli government, but anti-Zionism is anti-semitism. I feel ashamed that our country has allowed this scourge to grow, particularly when my parents' generation lived through the Holocaust.

I'm not against the existence of Israel for more than one reason in the modern day but that's a different topic.

However, purely for objectivity a couple of things should be said in relation to a point in your post.

We can argue (not that I'm that interested in it) on whether what the UN gave to the Jews after WW2 was valid or justice or whatever.

However,

Israel never stuck to the borders that the UN gave them (enforced by the British) and used the importation of millions of Jews over twenty years (allowed by the British) to start by forcing out the British by terrorist groups (the leader of one they later elected PM) by murdering our troops.

But once having forced out the British by bombing and hanging our troops (never apologised) but soon after they soon forced out 700,000 mostly Muslims living outside their set boundary by forcing them out and if they wouldn't move killing them. These weren't military they were civilians being attacked by Jewish militants mostly armed illegally (another story in of itself).

Is someone antisemitic if they regard that as wrong?

I don't so easily forget the murder of our troops as easily as career politicians do.

No, I don't have to like the net effect of Muslims and their own colonizations and wrong doings..... to say that in the modern world that's wrong......What wrong did Muslim civilians living outside the UN boundary do?

Since then they have continually expanded, even beyond the 1967 borders that become a compromise position later on. Not all those wars were started by them but they all resulted in Israel expansion due to several reasons....again beyond the scope of my post.

Resistance to Israel's expansion has become known as antisemitism.....It's not my war and I'm hardly pro Muslim due to what they do to others themselves.......but I find it quaint to know the history and still think it's all fine and dandy...and then get called anti semitic if you stay true to the history.

Not because I prefer Muslims to Jews....in fact it's very much the opposite.

But just if you stay objective.

But I find it quaint that if you have an issue with what happened and what's happening....which is essentially colonization by force of arms that it gets called antisemitism....In other words that you just hate Jews....even though I want British Jews to stay in my country and for Muslim trouble makers to be booted out.

But when if it was the British colonization and empire building in the past....that instead gets continually rejected as evil by everyone. No one says it's racial hatred or anti white or anti British or whatever to attack us....it literally gets taught in the schools that what we did (which every nation did at some point) was wrong and evil and no one bats an eyelid.....Even though I regard this lefty worldview as out of context and lacking nuance.

There is a double standard there.....and when you dig into it...the reason why is obvious.
 
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As I have explained clearly Israel is the nation state of the Jewish people. That's not "conflating" that's basic reality. You may not like the promised by God part but that's what they believe. So take it up with them.

Holding Jews worldwide collectively responsible for Israel is antisemitic. Which is why we are seeing Jews attacked in London, Manchester, Birmingham, Australia and other parts of the world.

You should really disclose when you're using ChatGPT.

Yes, Israel is a Jewish state - that does not make the terms 'Israel' and 'the Jews' interchangeable, no matter what AI word salad you keep pasting in.

People can believe whatever they want - that's not a basis for any decision making. If I believe Selhurst Park is promised to me by God, I'm sure we'd all agree that doesn't give me any sort of right to it. It's just a completely nonsense argument.

I agree with your last paragraph, but you can't have it both ways. By continuing to pretend that criticism of Israel is criticism of 'the Jews', you are contributing to the very problem you highlight; Jews worldwide being held responsible for Israel's actions. This is precisely why the conflation is antisemitic, as I keep highlighting to you and others.
 
You should really disclose when you're using ChatGPT.

Yes, Israel is a Jewish state - that does not make the terms 'Israel' and 'the Jews' interchangeable, no matter what AI word salad you keep pasting in.

People can believe whatever they want - that's not a basis for any decision making. If I believe Selhurst Park is promised to me by God, I'm sure we'd all agree that doesn't give me any sort of right to it. It's just a completely nonsense argument.

I agree with your last paragraph, but you can't have it both ways. By continuing to pretend that criticism of Israel is criticism of 'the Jews', you are contributing to the very problem you highlight; Jews worldwide being held responsible for Israel's actions. This is precisely why the conflation is antisemitic, as I keep highlighting to you and others.

I'm not the one using chat gpt here. My point is that it's not antisemitism to conflate Jews with Israel as Israel is the nation state of the Jewish people. Just as much as it's not antisemitism to criticise Israel.

Next you will be telling us all that critisising Marc Israel Geuihe for not signing a new contract is antisemitism because he has Israel in his name 🤣

Like I said take it up with the Jews who believe the land is promised by God.
 
I'm not the one using chat gpt here. My point is that it's not antisemitism to conflate Jews with Israel as Israel is the nation state of the Jewish people. Just as much as it's not antisemitism to criticise Israel.

Next you will be telling us all that critisising Marc Israel Geuihe for not signing a new contract is antisemitism because he has Israel in his name 🤣

Like I said take it up with the Jews who believe the land is promised by God.

I'd suggest editing a bit more next time if you do want to hide behind AI.

The bit in bold surely applies to your side of the argument... I don't think criticising Israel is antisemitism... you do. Bizarre.

I don't need to take it up with anyone - people are perfectly entitled to believe what they want, but everyone else doesn't need to agree. It's a completely bullshit premise.
 
Israel brags on TV about abusing Palestinians using metal rods and 'Django' the dog rapist.


😎

Yep, this is not something the west should be supporting.

We do not believe in attacking prisoners under our control. What happens on the battlefield is for the battlefield. I don't believe in prosecuting soldiers engaged in war situations where they can be under attack....horrible sh1t can and does happen between combatants. But that's the battlefield, which is kill or be killed.

Excepting highly unusual situations, I'm very against attempts to hold individual soldiers to account for this by social liberals and the left in our country.

However what happens in a prison camp is something else.

When this kind of thing...being abuse in prison camps, came to light in the west, during the Iraq war, there has been accountability for it.

I hope this happens in Israel.
 
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I'd suggest editing a bit more next time if you do want to hide behind AI.

The bit in bold surely applies to your side of the argument... I don't think criticising Israel is antisemitism... you do. Bizarre.

I don't need to take it up with anyone - people are perfectly entitled to believe what they want, but everyone else doesn't need to agree. It's a completely bullshit premise.

Next time someone disagrees with me maybe I should also just say they are using AI. 🤷🏻‍♂️ I've been consistent in my argument that conflating Israel with Jewish people is not antisemitism. Attacking Jews like we see nearly on a daily basis now is.
 
Yep, this is not something the west should be supporting.

We do not believe in attacking prisoners under our control. What happens on the battlefield is for the battlefield. I don't believe in prosecuting soldiers engaged in war situations where they can be under attack....horrible sh1t can and does happen between combatants. But that's the battlefield, which is kill or be killed.

Excepting highly unusual situations, I'm very against attempts to hold individual soldiers to account for this by social liberals and the left in our country.

However what happens in a prison camp is something else.

When this kind of thing...being abuse in prison camps, came to light in the west, during the Iraq war, there has been accountability for it.

I hope this happens in Israel.

No chance - this stuff is not a secret and has been going on for years:

 
Next time someone disagrees with me maybe I should also just say they are using AI. 🤷🏻‍♂️ I've been consistent in my argument that conflating Israel with Jewish people is not antisemitism. Attacking Jews like we see nearly on a daily basis now is.

Or you could just admit it and disclose it - it's not a big deal, I just think it's reasonable to let people know.

You've repeated yourself a few times and not engaged with any of the counterarguments I've made - funny enough I don't think it's for you to define antisemitism. If you continue to conflate Israel and 'the Jews', you are contributing to the antisemitism that sees innocent Jewish people attacked.
 
Or you could just admit it and disclose it - it's not a big deal, I just think it's reasonable to let people know.

You've repeated yourself a few times and not engaged with any of the counterarguments I've made - funny enough I don't think it's for you to define antisemitism. If you continue to conflate Israel and 'the Jews', you are contributing to the antisemitism that sees innocent Jewish people attacked.

Whenever I use grok I mention it. I generally use it for stats or to find news articles to support a particular argument. Which I think most people do these days.

I engaged with your points and you dismissed them as "AI".

As I said Israel is the nation state of the Jews. There is no antisemitism there it's just a fact. It is what it is. I'm not defining it.
 

The west can be criticised for things, just as anywhere else can or should be. But I know it's the west that introduced laws of warfare and treatment of prisoners to make it 'international law'......Nowhere else did, that was a western achievement that binds combatants....to a mostly reasonable degree.

If Israel wants to define itself as a western nation upholding western standards then when it comes to prison camps it can't have unprofessionalism like this.

There are plenty of Jews who will be working towards some level of accountability for abuse like this.
 
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Whenever I use grok I mention it. I generally use it for stats or to find news articles to support a particular argument. Which I think most people do these days.

I engaged with your points and you dismissed them as "AI".

As I said Israel is the nation state of the Jews. There is no antisemitism there it's just a fact. It is what it is. I'm not defining it.

So dishonest - I'd suggest to cover up the drastic shift in writing style and use of punctuation next time, but anyway you're clearly going to keep denying.

You haven't at all engaged with the points I've made at all - you just keep repeating things like "Israel is the nation state of Jews" as if that's even being contested.

You’ve already acknowledged that “holding Jews worldwide collectively responsible for Israel is antisemitic,” yet you simultaneously argue that describing Israel’s actions as the actions of the Jews is not. Those two positions make zero sense are entirely contradictory.

You also claim you are not attempting to define antisemitism, but you have said “it's not antisemitism to conflate Jews with Israel, as Israel is the nation state of the Jewish people” - that certainly sounds like a definition to me, and one that directly contradicts how major antisemitism bodies view the topic.

The International Holocaust Remembrance Alliance (IHRA) and the Jerusalem Declaration on Antisemitism both explicitly warn against conflating Jews collectively with the state of Israel. So while you insist you are not defining antisemitism, you are pushing a definition that runs contrary to the position of many of the institutions most associated with identifying and studying antisemitism...

But apparently you know better than they do..?
 
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I don’t agree with any of them killing each other but 60 k would still be alive but for oct 7th.
Thats actually a fact !
Yes. And but for the fact that you slapped him in the face, your whole family would not have been murdered.

I am not equating a slap in the face with Oct 7, but you get the point.

Israel is not an auto response machine. It is a human led entity that always had choice. It chose retribution - with much international support (including mine) - and then went way way way beyond that.

It is the "beyond that" element where we part ways. It is opportunistic ethnic cleansing and border clearance. It is no different to what happened in the Balkans or on the eastern front, save in scale. That in my eyes is wrong.

It is pointless just saying "what about Oct 7" - as we are essentially as one. And it is misconceived calling me out as a "Jew hater" if I don't agree with Israel's policies.
 
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