Israel v Hamas

[eaglesdare]

It is currently not accepted fact, although the NYT is "proper" journalism and I would be surprised if they went with it without something concrete to corroborate the story. We will see.

The NYT did not "bury" Oct 7 but reported on it extensively. You just made that point up while typing your post in order to support your absurd suggestion that a significantly Jewish newspaper is antisemitic.

They brought out the dogs raping women story the day before Israel’s detailed Oct 7 sexual violence report. Hence they tried to bury it.

Having Jewish staff doesn’t immunize bias.

 

[silvertop]

The UK are a parts supplier of basically last resort for some US equipment. And most of that is blocked these days. I've extensively researched it and I'm a former defense analyst.
These parts tend to be available in Turkey anyway.
The UK used to be a major supplier to Israel - probably up to around the early to mid 90s. It's all US equipment now - as it is everywhere else as well.
The UK may be giving software support and analysis but that would be secret. You could ask Spindle but he won't tell you.
This claim that the UK is complicit, is a supplier - it's total rubbish for decades now. All of the previous wars in the 70s etc - yes. The Israeli tank was a Centurion with a different name. The Tar-21? (Personal weapon) was an adapted L85-A1 (SA 80 to you). None of these anymore. I haven't even looked up what they do use but it'll be US.
More what Israel arms illustrates is how far the UK have fallen and that everyone who can afford it buys US stuff.
Note Trump went round the Middle East and sold arms. All of those Saudi deals etc will now have ended or be coming to an end. The arms industry will be having large domestic sales soon enough. Once they sort out all of the ridiculous issues with their specs, design and compatibility.
You really don't want to know how it is currently.

It's a bloody mess, and the SDR has a great deal of weight to carry.

However, I get they buy nowt from us, but I understood we have (?) rocket launchers in our arsenal that are Israeli made.

If they are not buying our kit, why do we still need to be nice to them?

 

[silvertop]

They brought out the dogs raping women story the day before Israel’s detailed Oct 7 sexual violence report. Hence they tried to bury it.

Having Jewish staff doesn’t immunize bias.

No. But not being biased does.

 

[georgenorman]

Israel former IDF soldiers confirm it.

😎

Surprised you haven't added that they eat babies too.

 

[ASCPFC]

It's a bloody mess, and the SDR has a great deal of weight to carry.

However, I get they buy nowt from us, but I understood we have (?) rocket launchers in our arsenal that are Israeli made.

If they are not buying our kit, why do we still need to be nice to them?

I'd say our relationship with Israel is somewhat tempered by financial concerns in the City, and obviously by the US.
Domestically, among people, the attitude towards Israel is being driven by Islam. It's hardly surprising that we all know and interact with more Muslims than we do with Jews on a daily basis. It rubs off on everyone, quite understandably.
There used to be Israeli imports of vegetables but couldn't say how much that still goes on.

 

[silvertop]

Surprised you haven't added that they eat babies too.

No, but they kill them in bombing raids.

 

[Stirlingsays]

Sounds about right.

On the point highlighted, my understanding was the only significant challenge Netty received was based on complaints he was doing insufficient to retrieve the Hamas hostages.

Other than a small handful of well meaning women holding placards outside air bases, practically no opposition to the ethnic cleansing of Gaza.

I am not sure there is any opposition to the conflict with Iran/Lebanon?

Yep, all human nature when people feel under threat.

They will vote for the strong man willing to hit back, whether they are Palestinian or Israeli.

I felt the same after 9/11.....I blame no one for those feelings.

Whether it's always the right guy for their futures is another question.

Also there are other power bases in government (security/intelligence/civil service) who effect decisions and pathways and are never up for election......Understandably as that would never work.

But unless your top guy makes the right appointments it's not going to go well.

 

[silvertop]

I'd say our relationship with Israel is somewhat tempered by financial concerns in the City, and obviously by the US.
Domestically, among people, the attitude towards Israel is being driven by Islam. It's hardly surprising that we all know and interact with more Muslims than we do with Jews on a daily basis. It rubs off on everyone, quite understandably.
There used to be Israeli imports of vegetables but couldn't say how much that still goes on.

Only among other Muslims.

For the majority, we are being drawn and quartered by, on the one hand, extensive reporting on antisemitic attacks by Muslims; and, on the other, by Israel's carpet bombing of civilians in Gaza/Lebanon and war on Iran.

The latter of which has caused our economy - that was crawling up by glacial steps - to rapidly drop straight back into the sh1t it just crawled from.

 

[CPFCSaturn]

I'd say our relationship with Israel is somewhat tempered by financial concerns in the City, and obviously by the US.
Domestically, among people, the attitude towards Israel is being driven by Islam. It's hardly surprising that we all know and interact with more Muslims than we do with Jews on a daily basis. It rubs off on everyone, quite understandably.
There used to be Israeli imports of vegetables but couldn't say how much that still goes on.

I don't think so at all - it's being driven by Israel and their conduct.

I think religion doesn't even enter the thinking of most domestic people in forming their views on this topic.

 

[ASCPFC]

I don't think so at all - it's being driven by Israel and their conduct.

I think religion doesn't even enter the thinking of most domestic people in forming their views on this topic.

Then we'll disagree. I think we're underestimating how much our daily interaction with Islam is influencing us. I wouldn't have expected protests or even propaganda if you like, from either viewpoint, on a similar scale in any of the previous conflicts. I also suspect, but haven't looked into it, far less protest from countries with lower percentages of Islamic populations.

 

[CPFCSaturn]

Then we'll disagree. I think we're underestimating how much our daily interaction with Islam is influencing us. I wouldn't have expected protests or even propaganda if you like, from either viewpoint, on a similar scale in any of the previous conflicts. I also suspect, but haven't looked into it, far less protest from countries with lower percentages of Islamic populations.

In what sort of ways do daily interactions with Western Muslims influence us?

There's been massive protests in London over the Ukraine war, despite no religious aspect to it - people are generally moved to protest for moral reasons. I don't know why that would be any different this time.


I asked ChatGPT to look into correlations between protest size/frequency and Muslim populations - findings below:

• Muslim population size correlates moderately with protest visibility in some countries.
• It correlates much less cleanly with actual government policy.
• Historical and political culture often explains more than demographics alone.

 

[ASCPFC]

In what sort of ways do daily interactions with Western Muslims influence us?

There's been massive protests in London over the Ukraine war, despite no religious aspect to it - people are generally moved to protest for moral reasons. I don't know why that would be any different this time.


I asked ChatGPT to look into correlations between protest size/frequency and Muslim populations - findings below:

• Muslim population size correlates moderately with protest visibility in some countries.
• It correlates much less cleanly with actual government policy.
• Historical and political culture often explains more than demographics alone.

There are a lot of Ukrainians in the UK, however. Again, no exposure to Ukrainians and less protest, in my opinion. I think chatGPT is saying that too really. But I do understand your point. I don't fully agree with it. I'd partially accept it. I think you're partially accepting mine.

 

[georgenorman]

No, but they kill them in bombing raids.

They deliberately target babies do they?

 

[silvertop]

They deliberately target babies do they?

Depends on your interpretation of "deliberately target".

Do they locate babies and fire missiles intending to kill them - then no.

Do they target dense civilian population areas based on intel there may be Hamas personnel there while disregarding that those persons make up only a tiny % of the collateral deaths of those unlucky enough to be caught in the kill zone - a number that will inevitably include babies - then yes.

Many people protested against this war because they are Muslim and are against any attacks on their brothers and sisters. However, that is a warm a fluffy simplification that appeals to Islamophobic types like you but is far from accurate.

The protesters were multicultural, multi faith and multi demographic. They objected to the indiscriminate nature of genocide where the victims were as likely to be Hamas/supporters of Hamas as they were non supporters like Palestinian Christians.

 

[georgenorman]

Depends on your interpretation of "deliberately target".

Do they locate babies and fire missiles intending to kill them - then no.

Do they target dense civilian population areas based on intel there may be Hamas personnel there while disregarding that those persons make up only a tiny % of the collateral deaths of those unlucky enough to be caught in the kill zone - a number that will inevitably include babies - then yes.

Many people protested against this war because they are Muslim and are against any attacks on their brothers and sisters. However, that is a warm a fluffy simplification that appeals to Islamophobic types like you but is far from accurate.

The protesters were multicultural, multi faith and multi demographic. They objected to the indiscriminate nature of genocide where the victims were as likely to be Hamas/supporters of Hamas as they were non supporters like Palestinian Christians.

Does Israel often warn populations in certain areas that they should evacuate as they are about to attack. Did Hamas deliberately target babies in their October attacks.

 

[silvertop]

Does Israel often warn populations in certain areas that they should evacuate as they are about to attack. Did Hamas deliberately target babies in their October attacks.

Lip service.

By bringing in Oct 7, are you saying the moral standard for Israel is identical to that of Hamas?

And before you respond, Israel purports to be a western democracy and Hamas are Jihadi terrorists.

Thus, we are a western democracy and are still getting sh1t for Bloody Sunday. 54 years ago and 14 deaths, rather than 54 weeks ago and in excess of 70,000.

 

[Spindle]

.

FAFO

 

[Spindle]

Not sure that has been fact checked, but we also buy arms from them.

Sky Sabre, an essential Army local area defence, currently defending the Falklands, is part made by Rafael.

For example.

These goons don't understand, they are practically traitors without realising it

 

[Spindle]

Proven crimes deserve condemnation regardless of who commits them.

But “dogs raping women” is not fact. The New York times is amplifying these smears while burying the October 7th evidence and that is the antisemitism tell.

When he said dogs raping women I thought he was on about the grooming gangs

 

[Forest Hillbilly]

People's views are dependant on their sources. I tend to look around and not just read Western sources.

"Israel has demolished 50 shops in al-Eizariya overnight, erasing the livelihoods of more than 200 families despite legal appeals to Israel’s Supreme Court. Israel has earmarked a swath of land for a settlement corridor that would bisect the occupied West Bank and displace thousands of Bedouin villagers." (13.5.26)

Israel bulldozes Palestinian shops to make way for settlement-linked road

Israel bulldozes Palestinian shops to make way for settlement-linked road

www.aljazeera.com

This sort of thing happens daily and is unreported in Western media. Palestinian families killed (although not in this instance) and their properties burned to the ground to make way for Israeli "settlements"

And people wonder why HAMAS has some leverage.