War in Ukraine

Mapletree said:
I am not sure they do leave it out. This summary is AI generated.

Let us also remember the Russian speakers in Donbas largely are there as purposeful implants from Russia exactly in order to prevent a successful independence move for Ukraine.
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It's funny how in our globalised economy, saying "I am born and bred here" is practically a hate crime and apologies are required. Immigrants are allowed to identify as British almost immediately.

But Russians who have been in the Donbass for decades? Nah - They are 'implants' and Ukraine was somehow justified in bombing the s*** out of them since 2014.

Make it make sense.
 
McAhuna said:
It's funny how in our globalised economy, saying "I am born and bred here" is practically a hate crime and apologies are required. Immigrants are allowed to identify as British almost immediately.

But Russians who have been in the Donbass for decades? Nah - They are 'implants' and Ukraine was somehow justified in bombing the s*** out of them since 2014.

Make it make sense.
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Annexing neighbours by force because they have populations like yours is generally considered bad.

The Germans did just that in various directions and still get bad press many years on.
 
Mapletree said:
I am not sure they do leave it out. This summary is AI generated.

Let us also remember the Russian speakers in Donbas largely are there as purposeful implants from Russia exactly in order to prevent a successful independence move for Ukraine.
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Oh brother.
 
Mapletree said:
According to Chatham House, Russia's invasion of Ukraine is driven by a desire to reassert its geopolitical influence and dominance in the Black Sea region, which it views as a crucial "imperial sphere of influence". Other contributing factors include its perception of NATO expansion as a threat and its "realist" view of the international system as one of zero-sum competition, where it feels compelled to act to prevent perceived threats from the West.
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Largely correct but I find the use of the word, 'imperialist' almost amusing.
The west does with corruption via brown envelopes what Russia does with 'imperialism'......All just justifications when they both seek the same outcomes.

Mapletree said:
Desire for regional dominance
  • Russia seeks to dominate the Black Sea to rebuild its power and assert its status as a great power.
  • This ambition is deeply tied to its neo-imperial identity and the projection of its influence into surrounding regions.
  • Dominance over the Black Sea is seen as indispensable for Russia's long-term geopolitical and security strategy.
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Sure, the same as the US, the same as China.


Mapletree said:
Perceptions of threat from the West
  • Russia views the expansion of NATO as a major threat to its security, even though this perception goes beyond the military alliance itself.
  • It frames its actions in the Black Sea as a defensive response to perceived Western encroachment.
  • Russia believes that Western countries do not consider Georgia and Ukraine as important to them as they do to Russia, which it interprets as allowing it to escalate actions without risking proportional retaliation.
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Accurate.....Russia view the west's response as about regime change in Russia by weakening the country to encourage different camps and a Russia break up.....They hoped to do with without a war in Ukraine, but the encroachment into Ukraine by....mainly US state department neocon policy....was Russia's redline. No one can't say they weren't clear about this. The US/Nato miscalculated and now the war is continued to save face as much as anything else....Johnson/Biden were a disaster not closing the war down shortly after it started......it's a disaster and a dangerous one for us.

We can't fecking afford it and it does my nut in when I think about it......So I post about it far less often now.

Mapletree said:
Strategic worldview
  • Russia operates under a "realist" worldview, where it sees international politics as a zero-sum game of competition, not cooperation.
  • It frequently attributes its own intentions to its adversaries and sees actions as a necessary response to hostile "external stimuli".
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This part though is pure double standard.

Mapletree said:
  • From this perspective, securing a sphere of influence is not only legitimate but essential for maintaining global order, with the West viewed as the primary source of conflict for refusing to accept this idea
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Basic Mearsheimer's great power theory that gets proven correct time and time again.

Both sides view their opponents the same way.

With better leaders and a lack of neocons in the US state department it all would have been avoided.

For liberals in the west it's far more about hating Russia than it is about caring about Ukraine. Ukraine's future has been dashed on the rocks.
 
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Mapletree said:
I am not sure they do leave it out. This summary is AI generated.

Let us also remember the Russian speakers in Donbas largely are there as purposeful implants from Russia exactly in order to prevent a successful independence move for Ukraine.
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That's some stretch.

A bit like saying English speakers in Wales is about ensuring they don't go independent.

These are slavs on their border! They are practically the same. A border that has altered as you'd expect via wars and negotiations.

Russian speakers have been present in the Donbas region in large numbers (encompassing modern Donetsk and Luhansk oblasts in eastern Ukraine) for several centuries.....1760s according to Grok.....Again, war, same as with every other country.

I don't think Russia would have given Crimea to Ukraine back in the 1950s if they thought that there was a danger of the country being turned against them.

The neocons created this war and it's too obvious for some.

It's all a double standard when you look at the US Monroe doctrine and how they project power themselves.....All slop for liberals to get heated over and pretend that it's all about morality when it's really about geographic power politics.
 
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Stirlingsays said:
That's some stretch.

A bit like saying English speakers in Wales is about ensuring they don't go independent.

These are slavs on their border! They are practically the same. A border that has altered as you'd expect via wars and negotiations.

Russian speakers have been present in the Donbas region in large numbers (encompassing modern Donetsk and Luhansk oblasts in eastern Ukraine) for several centuries.....1760s according to Grok.....Again, war, same as with every other country.

I don't think Russia would have given Crimea to Ukraine back in the 1950s if they thought that there was a danger of the country being turned against them.

The neocons created this war and it's too obvious for some.

It's all a double standard when you look at the US Monroe doctrine and how they project power themselves.....All slop for liberals to get heated over and pretend that it's all about morality when it's really about geographic power politics.
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Western imperialism just has better PR, and a lot of very gullible adherents.
 
McAhuna said:
Western imperialism just has better PR, and a lot of very gullible adherents.
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Ah, let me guess, you are a certain railwayman of my acquaintance. Hiya, how you doing? Hope you enjoyed Lublin.

You may find this lady interesting.

www.iwm.at

The “Russian Minority in Donbas” and the History of the Majority

Much is made of the “Russian minority” in Donbas. But a closer look at the complex lives of people and forces at play in the region—in the Soviet period and since—makes clear just how much this concept obscures.
www.iwm.at www.iwm.at
 
Stirlingsays said:
That's some stretch.

A bit like saying English speakers in Wales is about ensuring they don't go independent.

These are slavs on their border! They are practically the same. A border that has altered as you'd expect via wars and negotiations.

Russian speakers have been present in the Donbas region in large numbers (encompassing modern Donetsk and Luhansk oblasts in eastern Ukraine) for several centuries.....1760s according to Grok.....Again, war, same as with every other country.

I don't think Russia would have given Crimea to Ukraine back in the 1950s if they thought that there was a danger of the country being turned against them.

The neocons created this war and it's too obvious for some.

It's all a double standard when you look at the US Monroe doctrine and how they project power themselves.....All slop for liberals to get heated over and pretend that it's all about morality when it's really about geographic power politics.
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When I worked in Nowa Huta (Krakow) it was a factory that had no reason to be there. It was a Soviet policy to influence local politics which were mainly strongly anti communist. This has always been in the playbook. Loads of Russians were enabled to move to Donbas in the 1960s and 70s both for economic but also political reasons.
 
Mapletree said:
When I worked in Nowa Huta (Krakow) it was a factory that had no reason to be there. It was a Soviet policy to influence local politics which were mainly strongly anti communist. This has always been in the playbook. Loads of Russians were enabled to move to Donbas in the 1960s and 70s both for economic but also political reasons.
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Come on this is ridiculous.

Go onto Grok like I did and research how far back Russian speakers and immigrants go back in that area. Well, looking at the article you posted you have done....So in some ways I'm not getting the point here?

Surely you understand that the history between Ukraine and Russia has not been combative for most of modern history? Of course there have been flows of migrants between both countries. Before the State department began sticking their nose in Ukraine had voted int a slightly pro Russia government (though it wanted economic ties with the EU)....This was not a particularly anti Russian country before the meddling.

Ukraine migrants have also been moving into Russia for centuries....Tell me Maple, is that part of some malicious plan as well? Go research it yourself.....the most famous of those immigrants from Ukraine being Cossacks.

These are both countries with large borders and we are talking centuries.

As I stated your implied motives are quite a stretch, you haven't even touched the reasons I gave why that is.

Besides, they had a frigging civil war in 2014 that started initially without Russia (who came in when it started to go against them) and those rebelling were Ukrainian units in the region fighting against the government.

The rebelling regions in Ukraine voted in the majority for that overthrown government.

I get annoyed when there seems to be this lack of recognition that the east of Ukraine isn't the same as western Ukraine and while both regions aren't a monolith (though it's portrayed that way) they both contain significantly different cultural ties.
 
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ukdefencejournal.org.uk

Ukraine signs up to buy 100 French fighter jets

Ukraine has signed a letter of intent to acquire up to 100 French Rafale multirole fighter jets along with air defence systems and drones during President Volodymyr Zelenskyy’s visit to Paris.
ukdefencejournal.org.uk ukdefencejournal.org.uk


MAJOR upgrade.

Not sure how they'll pay, but the Gripen E and Rafale are superb machines, and armed with Mica and Meteor or AIM120, then the Russians won't get nearly as close. SAMP/T as well, cutting edge.
 
Spindle said:
ukdefencejournal.org.uk

Ukraine signs up to buy 100 French fighter jets

Ukraine has signed a letter of intent to acquire up to 100 French Rafale multirole fighter jets along with air defence systems and drones during President Volodymyr Zelenskyy’s visit to Paris.
ukdefencejournal.org.uk ukdefencejournal.org.uk


MAJOR upgrade.

Not sure how they'll pay, but the Gripen E and Rafale are superb machines, and armed with Mica and Meteor or AIM120, then the Russians won't get nearly as close. SAMP/T as well, cutting edge.
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Europe is the obvious paymaster.

Whether it happens while the war continues is something else.

Ukraine needs 45 billion a year just to function.
 
We have to pay. If not then Putin is on the doorstep and we'd need to be actually ready to field our own troops and fight ourselves. Better it is in Eastern Ukraine.
 
I think Poland spending loads on British made defence is good for the UK.

You don't think that Poots would steam in if it was a goer? I do.
 
Spindle said:
I think Poland spending loads on British made defence is good for the UK.

You don't think that Poots would steam in if it was a goer? I do.
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He isn't going to take land that he can't hold and that's western Ukraine.

Obviously I'm not against defence investment.

My position just regards our foreign policy and what's best for our future.....all our futures.

We are in a right mess over this.....We can't afford commitments for our own economy let alone make the commitments on Ukraine.
 
It's sad to hear people salivating with relish over the latest military tech, it's potential, etc.
This used to be a trademark of the right, now it seems to be more of a feature of liberal politics

Reminder: We are talking about stuff that we pay for to:
1) Slaughter innocent conscripts and civilians
2) Enrich billionaires and arms companies
As an added bonus the defence budgets take money away from health and education.
Nothing to celebrate here folks.
The only thing worth celebrating will be the war ending asap.
 
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