Villa v Maccabi

CPFCSaturn said:
No.

I do believe in principle though, and I think the right to protest peacefully is an important one.

You seem quite happy to lose it because you don’t like people with different opinions.

Principled.
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Yes and no.
You can't peacefully go on a protest and shout slogans about killing all Jews.

That's not principle. That's unlawful.
 
CPFCSaturn said:
I think you’re misrepresenting, but I agree in principle that anyone guilty of what you suggest (inciting the murder of Jewish people) should indeed face criminal action.
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The far left find something new to demonstrate about most weeks. They tend to consist of the same people who don't usually have a brain cell between them.

The problem here is that we have a democratic system by which we make decisions. That's fine for the far left when it works in their favour, but when it doesn't, they are out on the streets making a nuisance of themselves. They have now also aligned themselves with foreign interests that run completely counter to their own principles.
One is therefore forced to wonder if the far left actually have any real principles, or if their delusions of moral superiority allow them to rationalise anything that they do as acceptable.
 
Hrolf The Ganger said:
The far left find something new to demonstrate about most weeks. They tend to consist of the same people who don't usually have a brain cell between them.

The problem here is that we have a democratic system by which we make decisions. That's fine for the far left when it works in their favour, but when it doesn't, they are out on the streets making a nuisance of themselves. They have now also aligned themselves with foreign interests that run completely counter to their own principles.
One is therefore forced to wonder if the far left actually have any real principles, or if their delusions of moral superiority allow them to rationalise anything that they do as acceptable.
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I think it’s true that most people lack principle, absolutely. I don’t think much of what you describe is particularly specific to the ‘far left’.

But my point is that people should be able to protest every day if that’s what they want to do - I don’t think it’s the state’s job to decide.

Protest and democracy have existed side by side for a rather long time.
 
CPFCSaturn said:
I think it’s true that most people lack principle, absolutely. I don’t think much of what you describe is particularly specific to the ‘far left’.

But my point is that people should be able to protest every day if that’s what they want to do - I don’t think it’s the state’s job to decide.

Protest and democracy have existed side by side for a rather long time.
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A democratic government like Britain's might allow freedom of expression through public demonstrations, but by its very nature has to serve the majority who elected it via the established system.
There will be grey areas where the right to protest cannot supersede the wider public interests.
 
CPFCSaturn said:
I don’t think it’s accurate that anyone holding that placard is guilty of a crime.

Context and intent are key.
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A placard implying death to all Jews seems fairly unambiguous.
 
Penge Eagle said:
Apparently Scottish nationalism is fine. English nationalism is racist. Maybe CPFC_Saturn could help explain this oddity?
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English nationalism has regrettable connotations, Scottish and (in the main) Welsh does not.

E.g. an SNP leader was Asian and Plyed Cymru leader mixed race. They want self determination - having been under the yolk of English rule for centuries (as they see it) - not racial purity.

An English nationalism that has as its goal secession from the Union rather than deportation of all non white non English (rather than a sensible immigration policy) would not attract the same level of suspicion and vilification than historic English nationalists.

Kind of like how the flag of St George has been appropriated (see other long thread).
 
silvertop said:
English nationalism has regrettable connotations, Scottish and (in the main) Welsh does not.

E.g. an SNP leader was Asian and Plyed Cymru leader mixed race. They want self determination - having been under the yolk of English rule for centuries (as they see it) - not racial purity.

An English nationalism that has as its goal secession from the Union rather than deportation of all non white non English (rather than a sensible immigration policy) would not attract the same level of suspicion and vilification than historic English nationalists.

Kind of like how the flag of St George has been appropriated (see other long thread).
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Eh!
I think you will find that White Christians are less preoccupied with 'racial' purity than just about any other demographic.
You seem to be confusing English nationalism with Nazi pseudo science.
 
CPFCSaturn said:
Even if we accept the Israeli interpretation of the slogan, this still isn’t true.
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A percentage of demonstrators definitely supported the October 7 attack on Israel and want all Jews to disappear.
Spin it however you like.
 
Hrolf The Ganger said:
Eh!
I think you will find that White Christians are less preoccupied with 'racial' purity than just about any other demographic.
You seem to be confusing English nationalism with Nazi pseudo science.
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Pride in your country, it’s traditions and culture is perfectly natural and healthy.

There is no requirement for any particular group of citizens to claim this. It can and should apply to everyone and that’s what everyone should be striving for.

Unfortunately “English Nationalism” has been hijacked by xenophobes with the intention to divide, rather than unite.
 
CPFCSaturn said:
But my point is that people should be able to protest every day if that’s what they want to do - I don’t think it’s the state’s job to decide.

Protest and democracy have existed side by side for a rather long time.
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I don't, it costs a fortune for the taxpayer and it's divisive and disturbing the peace
 
Wisbech Eagle said:
Pride in your country, it’s traditions and culture is perfectly natural and healthy.

There is no requirement for any particular group of citizens to claim this. It can and should apply to everyone and that’s what everyone should be striving for.

Unfortunately “English Nationalism” has been hijacked by xenophobes with the intention to divide, rather than unite.
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I can't really see how you can be nationalist without wanting to maintain a nation. A nation is hardly just a border on a map. The people have to all be a part in it. Clearly, parallel societies exist, whether wanting to replicate some kind of other lifestyle or alliance knowingly, or simply by circumstance. A nation is language and culture etc. It really can't just be whoever accidentally lives there. That's the road to former Yugoslavia and Balkanism. People living in states but not their nation state - as they see it - some actively fighting against it. Sound familiar at all to anything you see?
Cornish Nationalism would hardly just be an independent territory of Cornwall - it would be Cornish speaking with Cornish traditions. Wales similarly. Not quite the same in Scotland where there has been English speaking parts for a thousand years or so and Scots Gaelic seems to not have the allure of Welsh or Irish, or even Cornish in Cornwall. England would be English language and culture, that's what the education system would teach and encourage. That sounds almost impossible now - certainly highly unlikely.
Something like 20% of the population across pretty average places in England (not Bradford or Hounslow or anything ridiculous) filled in the last census saying that English is not their spoken language. As for traditions, half the people don't even know them anymore and they are often frowned on now, by English people as much as anyone else. I can't help but feel England and Europe are a victim of believing their own theories on colonialism and integration whilst ignoring any actual evidence, or longstanding social, political and psychological theories and studies - which are there for anyone to see, if they can be bothered to look. Group dynamics, migration, immigration, integration, crime, language, psychology. Since at least the fifties, studies have found similar things. Even when approaching issues from different lenses or political theories. Integration has been problematic to say the least. Really the political approach just shows the same people divided but blames different reasons for it. The original research found the divide - it's there. We just argue over why now. For one side it's someone else's fault, for the other it's their own fault. Where you stand on the political divide will define which side, left or right, would think that. So that can give you a bit of a laugh with people.
 
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