Villa v Maccabi

[CPFCSaturn]

What's interesting is the same people on here who said they don't hate Jews - they just care for the plight of the Palestinians or simply dislike the Israeli government.

Well it turns out that they the very same people who support the ban of Israel football fans from visiting Birmingham - and who have nothing to do with the actions of their government.

Quite blatant antisemitism. No wonder they don't like it being pointed out!

This is such poor logic - the two points are completely overlapping. To suggest the actions of Israel’s government have nothing to do with this ban, or the context that’s led to it, is just completely untrue.

Of course people who are unbothered by Israel killing tens of thousands of children are also going to defend Israeli’s right to violently riot in other countries.

Of course people who think Israel should be exempt from any of their commitments to international law also think Israeli football fans should be exempt from punishments which are regularly applied to others.

It’s completely logical.

 

[Teddy Eagle]

Ah, you're in the far left Zarah Sultana camp of investigating the football fans for war crimes.

Only applicable to some of Muscat's "tackling".

 

[HKOwen]

I do get this argument, and I know it's a bit lame to start policing chants - but if you think about what Maccabi fans are doing, it's way worse than this. It'd be like Liverpool fans shooting down the plane then singing about it the next day. Most Macabbi fans are ex IDF, some of them current IDF - they have Mossad accompany them to away games. The atrocoties are being carried out now, not decades ago like Munich. Munich was a tragedy, an accident. Genocide in the case of Gaza is quite calculated, deliberate and ongoing.

Almost evreyone in Israel is ex or current IDF you complete *****, they have conscription.

Are you thinking of standing for President of the Oxford Union by any chance Rodney

 

[HKOwen]

This is such poor logic - the two points are completely overlapping. To suggest the actions of Israel’s government have nothing to do with this ban, or the context that’s led to it, is just completely untrue.

Of course people who are unbothered by Israel killing tens of thousands of children are also going to defend Israeli’s right to violently riot in other countries.

Of course people who think Israel should be exempt from any of their commitments to international law also think Israeli football fans should be exempt from punishments which are regularly applied to others.

It’s completely logical.

Is Gaza part of Palestine, if yes we should not have any Palestinian representation in sport or other international events by your reckoning

 

[Penge Eagle]

This is such poor logic - the two points are completely overlapping. To suggest the actions of Israel’s government have nothing to do with this ban, or the context that’s led to it, is just completely untrue.

Of course people who are unbothered by Israel killing tens of thousands of children are also going to defend Israeli’s right to violently riot in other countries.

Of course people who think Israel should be exempt from any of their commitments to international law also think Israeli football fans should be exempt from punishments which are regularly applied to others.

It’s completely logical.

There is no modern precedent for banning a group of football fans from entering another country solely because of the actions of their government.

Punishing people for the actions of their government is literally the definition of discrimination – and when the targeted nationality happens to be Jewish Israelis, it crosses straight into antisemitism.

 

[CPFCSaturn]

There is no modern precedent for banning a group of football fans from entering another country solely because of the actions of their government.

Punishing people for the actions of their government is literally the definition of discrimination – and when the targeted nationality happens to be Jewish Israelis, it crosses straight into antisemitism.

1. The part in bold is just objectively untrue.

2. Russian clubs are your modern precedent.

 

[Penge Eagle]

1. The part in bold is just objectively untrue.

2. Russian clubs are your modern precedent.

Russians were caught up in travel restrictions but Russian fans did attend matches as they were not banned!

 

[silvertop]

What's interesting is the same people on here who said they don't hate Jews - they just care for the plight of the Palestinians or simply dislike the Israeli government.

Well it turns out that they the very same people who support the ban of Israel football fans from visiting Birmingham - and who have nothing to do with the actions of their government.

Quite blatant antisemitism. No wonder they don't like it being pointed out!

It is a bit more complicated.

There are undoubtedly those who want to ban Maccabi fans because they are against the actions of the Israeli government. Not me. I don't agree with targeting the people of a country for the actions of its rulers (kind of the argument I have on Palestinians and Hamas).

There are also those concerned with keeping good order in Birmingham who also want to ban them but for a very different reason (and nothing to do with any view on Israel, Gaza or jews). Maybe you?

I don't think anyone on here wants to ban them because they are jews. Thus, you might question the word "blatant" as that presupposes a genuine hatred of jews. Indirect prejudice may be more accurate.

As an aside, I have said it before but the subversion over the last few years (and it is only that) of where antisemitism lives and breeds has been remarkable. In my lifetime and for the previous millennia, it was a core trope of the right. The left were traditionally protectors of the jews and its ranks were filled with jews. Now, on an enemy of my enemy basis, suddenly Israel and the jews are supported by the right with fingers pointed at the left. Jews must be very confused.

Let us call it out. This finger pointing and limitless defence of Israel is Islamophobia or, at best, an unflinching support for an attack on Jihadi terror regardless of the collateral cost. I am happy to be disproved, but the many defenders of the IDF would not be happy if so many children were being killed elsewhere. They are content in this case as it is considered a fair cost to end Islamic terror.

That is what the debate should be. Is it fair or not fair. The finger pointing is pointless.

 

[HKOwen]

It is a bit more complicated.

There are undoubtedly those who want to ban Maccabi fans because they are against the actions of the Israeli government. Not me. I don't agree with targeting the people of a country for the actions of its rulers (kind of the argument I have on Palestinians and Hamas).

There are also those concerned with keeping good order in Birmingham who also want to ban them but for a very different reason (and nothing to do with any view on Israel, Gaza or jews). Maybe you?

I don't think anyone on here wants to ban them because they are jews. Thus, you might question the word "blatant" as that presupposes a genuine hatred of jews. Indirect prejudice may be more accurate.

As an aside, I have said it before but the subversion over the last few years (and it is only that) of where antisemitism lives and breeds has been remarkable. In my lifetime and for the previous millennia, it was a core trope of the right. The left were traditionally protectors of the jews and its ranks were filled with jews. Now, on an enemy of my enemy basis, suddenly Israel and the jews are supported by the right with fingers pointed at the left. Jews must be very confused.

Let us call it out. This finger pointing and limitless defence of Israel is Islamophobia or, at best, an unflinching support for an attack on Jihadi terror regardless of the collateral cost. I am happy to be disproved, but the many defenders of the IDF would not be happy if so many children were being killed elsewhere. They are content in this case as it is considered a fair cost to end Islamic terror.

That is what the debate should be. Is it fair or not fair. The finger pointing is pointless.

All opinions welcome, I happen to disagree.

No confusion , the jew hate comes from muslims and the left, nice of you to explain how others would be confused though.

 

[Penge Eagle]

It is a bit more complicated.

There are undoubtedly those who want to ban Maccabi fans because they are against the actions of the Israeli government. Not me. I don't agree with targeting the people of a country for the actions of its rulers (kind of the argument I have on Palestinians and Hamas).

There are also those concerned with keeping good order in Birmingham who also want to ban them but for a very different reason (and nothing to do with any view on Israel, Gaza or jews). Maybe you?

I don't think anyone on here wants to ban them because they are jews. Thus, you might question the word "blatant" as that presupposes a genuine hatred of jews. Indirect prejudice may be more accurate.

As an aside, I have said it before but the subversion over the last few years (and it is only that) of where antisemitism lives and breeds has been remarkable. In my lifetime and for the previous millennia, it was a core trope of the right. The left were traditionally protectors of the jews and its ranks were filled with jews. Now, on an enemy of my enemy basis, suddenly Israel and the jews are supported by the right with fingers pointed at the left. Jews must be very confused.

Let us call it out. This finger pointing and limitless defence of Israel is Islamophobia or, at best, an unflinching support for an attack on Jihadi terror regardless of the collateral cost. I am happy to be disproved, but the many defenders of the IDF would not be happy if so many children were being killed elsewhere. They are content in this case as it is considered a fair cost to end Islamic terror.

That is what the debate should be. Is it fair or not fair. The finger pointing is pointless.

So we're not allowed to call out bigotry and hypocrisy because it's "finger pointing"? I don't agree. My initial point in my post still stands.

PS I do have a problem with antisemitism from prominent right wingers in the USA, such as Candace Owens and Tucker Carlson.

 

[silvertop]

All opinions welcome, I happen to disagree.

No confusion , the jew hate comes from muslims and the left, nice of you to explain how others would be confused though.

But not all Muslims; and no greater presence on the left than on the right. The latter is largely a fiction as (I surmise) they are criticizing what you perceive as a justified attack on Jihad.

And would you label it "antisemitic" if the complaints against Israel were coming from the Christian Church because the IDF were killing thousands of Christians... hang on, they are!

 

[Wisbech Eagle]

What's interesting is the same people on here who said they don't hate Jews - they just care for the plight of the Palestinians or simply dislike the Israeli government.

Well it turns out that they the very same people who support the ban of Israel football fans from visiting Birmingham - and who have nothing to do with the actions of their government.

Quite blatant antisemitism. No wonder they don't like it being pointed out!

You seem to think ANY criticism of Israel or events in Israel are automatically anti semitism. They aren’t. They are criticism of the politics of the current government of Israel. Not the religious beliefs of the people they represent.

 

[Wisbech Eagle]

Do you seriously think he hasn't got more to worry about than trying to score PR points from a football match?

I expect he has staff tasked with overseeing such things. Just as others have staff posting messages on social media in their name!

 

[silvertop]

So we're not allowed to call out bigotry and hypocrisy because it's "finger pointing"? I don't agree. My initial point in my post still stands.

PS I do have a problem with antisemitism from prominent right wingers in the USA, such as Candace Owens and Tucker Carlson.

Who has used either on here? I am not saying they haven't, I just want to know where it is and what it was.

Thus, complaining about a school full of innocent children being killed every week is not antisemitism.

Complaining about the current Israel government opportunistically turning justifiable payback and defence into ethnic cleansing and a land grab is not antisemitism.

Calling out a man continuing to prosecute this campaign not out of a desire to protect his people but to protect his fragile government is not antisemitism.

Attacking a policy of withholding aid and medicine from a people who will die without either is not antisemitism.

Yet that is the allegation I see every day on this thread.

(I highlighted the above words as no government would have done nothing about Oct 7 - including ours).

 

[Penge Eagle]

You seem to think ANY criticism of Israel or events in Israel are automatically anti semitism. They aren’t. They are criticism of the politics of the current government of Israel. Not the religious beliefs of the people they represent.

That's not what I said. I said it's interesting that the same people who criticise the government also think that "From the River to the Sea" is acceptable; Jews control US politics; Jews should not have the state of Israel; or Tel Aviv fans should be banned etc. Bit of a coincidence, right?

 

[HKOwen]

But not all Muslims; and no greater presence on the left than on the right. The latter is largely a fiction as (I surmise) they are criticizing what you perceive as a justified attack on Jihad.

And would you label it "antisemitic" if the complaints against Israel were coming from the Christian Church because the IDF were killing thousands of Christians... hang on, they are!

Again ,all opinions welcome, not to be confused with facts

 

[Penge Eagle]

Who has used either on here? I am not saying they haven't, I just want to know where it is and what it was.

Thus, complaining about a school full of innocent children being killed every week is not antisemitism.

Complaining about the current Israel government opportunistically turning justifiable payback and defence into ethnic cleansing and a land grab is not antisemitism.

Calling out a man continuing to prosecute this campaign not out of a desire to protect his people but to protect his fragile government is not antisemitism.

Attacking a policy of withholding aid and medicine from a people who will die without either is not antisemitism.

Yet that is the allegation I see every day on this thread.

(I highlighted the above words as no government would have done nothing about Oct 7 - including ours).

Ethnic cleansing and land grabs and other stuff you mention are not based on fact but bias. And there is silence on other world atrocities.

You have also repeated the antisemitic trope of Jews controlling US politics.

I suspect you are OK with Israeli fans banned?

 

[silvertop]

Again ,all opinions welcome, not to be confused with facts

Identify those parts of my post that are not factual.

 

[silvertop]

Ethnic cleansing and land grabs and other stuff you mention are not based on fact but bias. And there is silence on other world atrocities.

You have also repeated the antisemitic trope of Jews controlling US politics.

I suspect you are OK with Israeli fans banned?

No they are not. The "recovery" of the land has been openly stated by members of the Cabinet.

A failure to comment on atrocity X does not mean you cannot comment on atrocity Y.

I have re-read my post and note that I said precisely nothing about "Jews controlling US politics". In fact I have repeatedly stated that the current government's stance is more dictated by its evangelical base.

And I said earlier today in a response to your post that I was not OK about banning Maccabi fans.

 

[Spiderman]

I do get this argument, and I know it's a bit lame to start policing chants - but if you think about what Maccabi fans are doing, it's way worse than this. It'd be like Liverpool fans shooting down the plane then singing about it the next day. Most Macabbi fans are ex IDF, some of them current IDF - they have Mossad accompany them to away games. The atrocoties are being carried out now, not decades ago like Munich. Munich was a tragedy, an accident. Genocide in the case of Gaza is quite calculated, deliberate and ongoing.

All Israelis have to do military service so you would be hard pressed to find any who had not served with the IDF, so not sure what the relevance of that statement is.
Just seen HKOwen beat me to it