Palace Fans Against Racism

TheBigToePunt said:
My question wasn't whether people were saying stop the boats in a positive, inclusive way. It was whether a reasonable person could say it, or only a racist (or a person incited, as you have it).

Unless I've misunderstood, you're telling me that whilst, in theory, a reasonable person could say STB, in reality it's actually only ever said to advocate racism?

This you have established by virtue of what other (more overtly racist) things are also said by people who say STB.

I mean, even if you set aside the support given to STB by the previous prime minister and home secretary who both happen to be Asian (and you really should test your idea against that pretty relevant bit of information) surely you see the shortcoming in your method?

You can't possibly have heard what else every person who supports STB has to say, can you? Or even the majority of them. Even if you spend all day every day trawling through social media on this subject and surveying other posts of STB supporters, you're only ever getting a limited sample size. Surely that's obvious? Surely you know better than to confuse the fact that a racist would say STB with the idea that anyone who says STB must be a racist?

For you to conclude that anyone saying STB is racist you also have to discount any other possible justification they might have. To repeat my earlier point, it's not a matter of whether you agree with people who are concerned about exponential population growth, social cohesion, pressure on services, or whatever. You may never agree with those arguments. You might be right not to. That, however, is not the same as dismissing them as validly held views by reasonable people.

This is my concern in a nutshell. You seem to be saying never mind the range and status of people prepared to support STB, or any of the reasons they give, because you feel you know what they really mean.

I assure you I'm not some troll. I've got no time for many of the people I've seen at asylum hotel protests and suchlike. There seem to be some proper bellends in the mix there to me. But that doesn't blind me to the respectable people making sensible points that happen to overlap with them. Or to the basic tenets of reason.
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Fair enough. If you do find someone using the phrase in a positive non-racist way then be sure to let me know.
 
maddog said:
Fair enough. If you do find someone using the phrase in a positive non-racist way then be sure to let me know.
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...many would reasonably say that people crossing the channel is not good for a lot of reasons and that we should look for a positive practical solution that stops this happening. I might say that myself. And someone else, unfamiliar with what has been happening, might logically summarise this position as wanting to “stop the boats” - if they were unaware of the phrase and the context in which it is being used.

Which phrase is acceptable then?
 
Teddy Eagle said:
...many would reasonably say that people crossing the channel is not good for a lot of reasons and that we should look for a positive practical solution that stops this happening. I might say that myself. And someone else, unfamiliar with what has been happening, might logically summarise this position as wanting to “stop the boats” - if they were unaware of the phrase and the context in which it is being used.

Which phrase is acceptable then?
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Millions must go.
 
maddog said:
Fair enough. If you do find someone using the phrase in a positive non-racist way then be sure to let me know.
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I will reply by saying Stop The Boats. I am not a racist, but I object to inappropriate and excessive immigration, as well as illegal immigration.

Until the last 15 years or so in my opinion immigration generally benefited the country both economically and culturally. It has become excessive, and we have also seen immigration for reasons that do not benefit Britain nor are humanitarian, as well as immigration by far too many people who do not share British values. By people who are racist (witness the rise of anti-semitism on our streets) sexist and homophobic. Of course that does not apply to all people arriving on the small boats, but most of them are young men coming here at best for economic reasons, many bringing with them attitudes that don't belong here. They are also all arriving from a safe country, which to my mind invalidates any claim to asylum. Of course the small boats don't account for most immigration, but 35,000 to 40,000 illegal arrivals per year is still a very large number, paid for by the tax-payer.

One more observation. In around 1995 I went to Morocco on holiday. I was amazed to see women in niqab / burka. I found it almost biblical. I had lived in London for 5 years by then and had never seen a woman dressed this way. In 2026 this manifestation of sexism has become rife in the UK, generally from the self-same people who have brought their hatred of Jews with them. No surprise that we seem to have a surge of people here who seem to despise Britain, its heritage and its values. I would love everyone to live together in harmony, but this type of immigration will continue to lead us in a different direction.

You are welcome to your view, but I must tell you that I am an extremely moderate and even-tempered individual, but I am sick and tired of the left conflating all opinions / issues they don't agree with under banners such as racism.
 
maddog said:
From that same website “There are no visa routes to enable people to claim asylum in the UK from overseas”
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So why destroy their ID before they reach the UK If they are genuinely escaping unsafe countries or situations.
Like I wrote, all bullshitters and piss takers. I had the luck to be born here, should I feel sorry for every person that wasn’t ?
 
maddog said:
There is no safe route to the UK to claim asylum. Unless your passport is from a select group of countries you must have a visa to travel to the UK - visas are not granted to people who state their reason for travelling to the UK is to claim asylum.
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Then head to a safe country that will take you,
 
maddog said:
From that same website “There are no visa routes to enable people to claim asylum in the UK from overseas”
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Is that because there haven't yet been any neighbouring countries that have been in such serious conflict that the UK becomes the natural safe haven?

I have Googled a world map so I don't make a fool of myself. I'd say Iceland, Norway, France, Spain, Netherlands, Germany, Portugal and Denmark might be such countries but I think you have to go back quite a long way in history for people desperately fleeing those countries.

I agree with you though, we should have a process just in case.
 
Well, having said that I never comment on political threads I have now been drawn into doing so a few times, and at length.

In fairness to @eastern boy the OP, as much as I don't think he expected the pushback he got, he didn't disappear, engaged to a degree, and explained his position. I hope, in turn, to have explained the counter arguments as I see them. Most importantly, I hope I have helped him to at least contemplate that, whilst if you were a racist you would undoubtably support STB, Robinson, etc, legitimate concerns about immigration, social cohesion, protecting western values, exponential population growth and so on, even if they include support for STB or Robinson, doesn't identify you as a racist. Moreover, you can recognise the distinction even if you don't share those concerns. He does seem to have at least acknowledged the point, even if he remains unconvinced.

I have to say, I have found conversing with Maddog less fruitful. I have received some excellent, witty responses to points I hadn't made, but few direct or meaningful responses to those I had.

That, for me, sums up why I don't post about politics but felt I had to this time: I can accept when I disagree with someone else's views. In fact, I can see the strength in many left or right leaning arguments. What I have an issue with is when a person arrives at a position, and promotes it, without any awareness they might be wrong, or that the matter isn't simple. When they then mischaracterise anyone who see's things differently, they are a red flag. Doing it my name, as a Palace supporter, is too far.

Beyond that, when a (different) person cant or won't engage with reasonable criticism, substituting points they can't address for ones they want to then, for me, they are the biggest risk of all. Partly because they are so ill-suited to the public discourse they are engaged in, and partly because of the irritated and dismissive responses they promote in me.

That, I know of course, is on some level what they want, either because they are trolling to some degree, or because they are so much more comfortable operating at that lower level of discourse. It's hard not to get drawn down to that type of squabbling. I've certainly had to re-draft a few parts of my responses to try and avoid it.

It is important to avoid squabbling, though. I rarely see any mileage in left vs right, its mostly about reason and self-awareness vs ignorance and self-regard. Whatever your political views, if you get sucked into a bun flight then you're probably just adding to the problem, however provoked you feel.

That's probably enough from me on this. Thanks for the more considered and interesting posts. I will now return to complaining about Palace's lack of creativity in the final third....
 
TheBigToePunt said:
Well, having said that I never comment on political threads I have now been drawn into doing so a few times, and at length.

In fairness to @eastern boy the OP, as much as I don't think he expected the pushback he got, he didn't disappear, engaged to a degree, and explained his position. I hope, in turn, to have explained the counter arguments as I see them. Most importantly, I hope I have helped him to at least contemplate that, whilst if you were a racist you would undoubtably support STB, Robinson, etc, legitimate concerns about immigration, social cohesion, protecting western values, exponential population growth and so on, even if they include support for STB or Robinson, doesn't identify you as a racist. Moreover, you can recognise the distinction even if you don't share those concerns. He does seem to have at least acknowledged the point, even if he remains unconvinced.

I have to say, I have found conversing with Maddog less fruitful. I have received some excellent, witty responses to points I hadn't made, but few direct or meaningful responses to those I had.

That, for me, sums up why I don't post about politics but felt I had to this time: I can accept when I disagree with someone else's views. In fact, I can see the strength in many left or right leaning arguments. What I have an issue with is when a person arrives at a position, and promotes it, without any awareness they might be wrong, or that the matter isn't simple. When they then mischaracterise anyone who see's things differently, they are a red flag. Doing it my name, as a Palace supporter, is too far.

Beyond that, when a (different) person cant or won't engage with reasonable criticism, substituting points they can't address for ones they want to then, for me, they are the biggest risk of all. Partly because they are so ill-suited to the public discourse they are engaged in, and partly because of the irritated and dismissive responses they promote in me.

That, I know of course, is on some level what they want, either because they are trolling to some degree, or because they are so much more comfortable operating at that lower level of discourse. It's hard not to get drawn down to that type of squabbling. I've certainly had to re-draft a few parts of my responses to try and avoid it.

It is important to avoid squabbling, though. I rarely see any mileage in left vs right, its mostly about reason and self-awareness vs ignorance and self-regard. Whatever your political views, if you get sucked into a bun flight then you're probably just adding to the problem, however provoked you feel.

That's probably enough from me on this. Thanks for the more considered and interesting posts. I will now return to complaining about Palace's lack of creativity in the final third....
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I will return to my stance of "all Palace fans will get a COYP response from me" and I don't dislike anyone on here. Sticking to Palace/football (which I believe this thread is still attached to), have a great season everyone.

If we're celebrating at Wembley I'll give you a high five and not even ask about your political opinions. Eeeeagles!
 
maddog said:
From that same website “There are no visa routes to enable people to claim asylum in the UK from overseas”
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So what?
 
maddog said:
From that same website “There are no visa routes to enable people to claim asylum in the UK from overseas”
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So the 3 illegals who have been jailed for rape your happy for them to come to this country undocumented , or the lad who was stabbed and the guy crys racist , and because of that police looked at the lad who's white and the one who cried racist , the white lad is guilty because of his colour and dies because of it , your views are so one sided you are not giving a intelligent view , you are just jumping on the racist banned wagon
 
maddog said:
There is no safe route to the UK to claim asylum. Unless your passport is from a select group of countries you must have a visa to travel to the UK - visas are not granted to people who state their reason for travelling to the UK is to claim asylum.
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FFS isn't there another forum somewhere where you can peddle your left wing views? I for one am fed up with all this politics on here. I know what you're going to say, dont read it then. Point is we wish to talk about Palace related topics. Thats kind of what THIS forum is for?
 
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